[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

[FlowersofPower]

They would still have to be a dot class since burst is taken

[Deliciou5]

The game is successful already and a butchering of the summoner class is a sure way to go in the other direction. You're style of ideas have been debated a thousand times over and bringing them back over and over again is asinine at best. Also, I am not attacking you but the flaws of your arguments (which seem keen to change by arguing semantics).

You keep talking about others needing to be taken seriously so here is an advice exactly so you can be taken seriously. Propose realistic changes for the job, like QoL and not changes that would butcher it.

You do not speak for everyone, in fact if there was any evidence that people wanted summoner to change...it's in the OP of this thread. Unlike charts that do not express intention or opinion it seems many people who do not play, or have played and are disappointed with the way summoner turned out. While roughly 40 people are hardly the vast of majority of the games population, you think that the answer for no would be a lot higher.

I also do not understand why i can only suggest things that fall within your idea of what summoner should be. If you argue that's the only way you will take me seriously then go ahead and think whatever you want....but it is quite arrogant of you to assume that vast majority thinks the same as you.After all you assume that the game will go in the other direction if the job changes, implying that everyone thinks just like you.

It's even more arrogant is to respond to me with serious posts then get upset when someone tells you they rather discuss new ideas of how the job would change when you yourself just admitted that you are only interested in discussing your own viewpoint.

If i asked for you to give me an example of a brand new ability that fit within your own QoL viewpoint..could you? Lets say this ability would be added when they raised the level cap. What would be your own best suggestion?

Every-time i make a new post you feel compelled to respond to it as if i was some kind of threat.Then you are not taking me seriously right? Then why even respond? I do not care if you do, but it is difficult to have any meaningful discussion for one side or another when we are always discussing each other's semantics as you said instead of brand new ideas. You don't even have to argue for the job to radically change.Just saying stop being a hypocrite.

In the end i am simply sharing ideas on what i believe should happen. For some reason that legitimately bothers you and you keep responding....that is very telling. If in your mind the dev's will never use my ideas, then it shouldn't bother you if i waste my time the way i want to. Not your place to moderate the forums, nor is it your place to tell people what they should discuss. Yes it is true i try to get people to discuss ideas...but i do not try to act so condescending about it. I do not think i am superior to you, nor do i say crap like how the game will start to fail because 1 job among many has changed.

If you do not like summoner filling multiple roles, fine... but should they have added rogue in when there is already so many other DD classes? Should there only be 2 healer classes available? Should there only be 2 tanks?(yes i know they are adding dark knight) Other mmo's are not afraid to add a bunch of classes that fill the same position, everyone wants their own flavor on how they want to play the game. You want DOT warlock ice cream while i want classic FF summoner Ice cream. We both have our own preference, i HIGHLY doubt that the game would go to crap just because they changed 1 job. Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes.

I also already explained in my idea post why i think it wouldn't be overpowered, the whole point of the post was address multiple issues at once so people can't just cherry pick arguments and isolate them from the rest of the post.

[Dwill]

You do not speak for everyone, in fact if there was any evidence that people wanted summoner to change...it's in the OP of this thread. Unlike charts that do not express intention or opinion it seems many people who do not play, or have played and are disappointed with the way summoner turned out. While roughly 40 people are hardly the vast of majority of the games population, you think that the answer for no would be a lot higher.

Why do you keep referencing that OP ? It hasn't updated in more than a year:



The people who post on the forum are the minority of the playerbase and that's a fact. This year's census has also shown us a growth of ~30% in amount of summoners over the last year so I think Square Enix must have done something correct with the job. So in the end, it's only a minority that request the change and that's also a fact.

[Deliciou5]

Why do you keep referencing that OP ? It hasn't updated in more than a year:



The people who post on the forum are the minority of the playerbase and that's a fact. This year's census has also shown us a growth of ~30% in amount of summoners over the last year so I think Square Enix must have done something correct with the job. So in the end, it's only a minority that request the change and that's also a fact.

So you are going to ignore the rest of my post and only attack my weakest argument? Okay.

Also that chart only shows people who register in duty finder,how do you know that the full 21% of them main 50 summoner? How do you know that the full 21% of people that play summoner would not want newer abilities? Didn't you read my other posts?On top of everything else liking a job doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't want newer abilities that fit the jobs description a bit better.You are speaking for everyone again.

This may come as an absolute shock to you, but playing a job is not the same as liking it. I played jobs in other mmo's all the way into end game then ended stopped playing altogether because i was completely dissapointed with the job...i wanted to like it but i ended not caring for it at all. Because there is no way to know how a job will turn out without all its abilities, you end up pushing yourself to play it to completion. I know many ninjas in FFXI who very dissapointed that they were always pigeon holed into a tank role and gave our LS leaders a hard time whenever they wanted to do raids as other jobs...but we didn't have any other tanks so we told them that since they leveled it they had to fill that role since all other party members didn't have a tank leveled up. Now this is not true for everyone, but how do you know everyone that plays summoner wants to play it? How do you know even if they do they wouldn't mind change?

Even if people main summoners in end game, everyone has different opinions on how things should be done. I do not deny that SE will look at that chart and think that they do not have to do anything to the job...that is my own disappointment.However, my logic still rings true...not everyone who does play summoner thinks the same as you.

[Exstal]

If i asked for you to give me an example of a brand new ability that fit within your own QoL viewpoint..could you? Lets say this ability would be added when they raised the level cap. What would be your own best suggestion?

Quick Summoning:
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Cast time: Instant
Allows you quickly summon a pet for no MP cost.

Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes.

That's a pretty high gamble to make. What's to say many people playing Summoner right now prefer the DoT/pet hybrid? Why not just make the pet class something that fits it better like Beastmaster? At least BST has been pretty consistent in what "feel" it has. I, on the other hand, think there would be great unrest if Summoner was to be overhauled now, or in the future to be nothing like it is now.

Baseball games are played with bases as squares. Some people do not like that they are squares and would rather they be neon coloured bath mats. MLB decides to change them to the neon coloured bath mats because the voices of the few.

This is more or less most of the arguments put forth by those wanting rework. Something simple => something ridiculous. There's a reason why people like you and Akiza are met with such "hostility", you try to reinvent the wheel. It's not reasonable to break something that isn't broken based on feelings. Especially when there is a very small sample size you're working with in *who* wants the change (need in-game census to be sure).

So going forward, if you're not interested in working within the system, people in this forum aren't going to take you seriously if you don't want to play by the rules.

.not everyone who does play summoner thinks the same as you.

Which is very easily extended to you.

[Dwill]

Snip.

Make up your mind. Do you want me to attack your argument or not ?

Since you haven't seem to have touched endgame in this game, let me tell you a little secret: There is 1 encounter where a Summoner is a somewhat necessity and it's T7 for the 4 stack strategy. For the rest, you can easily do the rest of the game without a Summoner. You can have a static with your DPS being Dragoon, Black Mage, Ninja, Bard and clear the entire raids in this game. So I think it's a safe bet to say that most people who play it to a reasonable degree at 50 enjoy the job. And no, all of them do not think like me but like Exstal said, the same can be said to you and it's also a safe bet to say that after Square Enix said multiple times that the job isn't changing, then it's not going to change, especially to something as drastic as what you're proposing.

If you're not going to be even remotely close to being realistic with the changes your proposing, I'm going to say this: enjoy wasting your time!

[dday3six]

If you do not like summoner filling multiple roles, fine... but should they have added rogue in when there is already so many other DD classes? Should there only be 2 healer classes available? Should there only be 2 tanks?(yes i know they are adding dark knight) Other mmo's are not afraid to add a bunch of classes that fill the same position, everyone wants their own flavor on how they want to play the game. You want DOT warlock ice cream while i want classic FF summoner Ice cream. We both have our own preference, i HIGHLY doubt that the game would go to crap just because they changed 1 job. Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes.

I also already explained in my idea post why i think it wouldn't be overpowered, the whole point of the post was address multiple issues at once so people can't just cherry pick arguments and isolate them from the rest of the post

The masses jumped on Rogue/Ninja because besides being the first new addition to the game in more than a year, it is a DPS, which the majority of people play. Heavensward will have one Tank (Dark Knight) and one Healer (Speculated to the Gun job Agent). SE has stated DK will not have a base class, with the statements about possibly reworking the Armory System going forward, it is likely the Healer will do the same. So if that is the case releasing Rogue/Ninja which does use the current system makes sense. It also give players time to get the most troublesome to level job out of the way before the expansion. Further note that the Doma refugee storyline was released already, and during it the Rogue Guild was already mentioned to be in Limsa.

People for the most part would rather spend time theory-crafting on ideas with a realistic grounding. For example, you want 'classic' FF Summoner, excluding the fact that Summoner does not have defined role from one FF to the next. Classically FF is a single player game. Balance is far less important, because characters in that setting are typically not going to feel snubbed if they are not played. However in a MMO balance is very important, because helps to ensure regardless of what job someone chooses to play, said job's role can filled equally well.

Roles: Tank, Healer, DPS. No Support because that role is mixed into the other 3. The role triangle is specifically used to better balance the game. Each job within a role does not directly overshadow another and this lets content be designed in such a way that it doesn't need to be accountable for radical differences between jobs. If your purposed Summoner were applied it completely breaks the this system by bleeding Summoner into other roles. Overpowered is not about flat numbers, so decreases in damage will not make up for having too many powers. That's why your flavor of Summoner changes if implemented would start a downward spiral. Because it breaks the role structure for the game, which is the cornerstone of balance.

Finally, I harp on your motivations because I feel they directly relate to your desire to have a conversation which is just repeating the same topics over and over, for the sake of a "problem" which doesn't have a strong case of existing. I draw from the example of pre-2.1 Warrior. There were no end to threads, videos, and discussions across multiple areas as to why Warrior needed a change. People would regularly leave a duty with a Warrior tanking. Spawn in, and gone. This is simply not the case with Summoner.

Does Summoner need some work? Yes, it does. Issues with MP, the usefulness of Tri-diaster, concerns of Spellspeed not being useful, yet it's on a lot of their gear. Hitting pet Accuracy caps, etc. However, every time you bring up how Summoner needs to be reworked in a radical way, and you keep bringing it up over and over, cause your championing an issue with little evidence to back it up. You distract from what players are more collectively saying about Summoner.

[Delily]

If you do not like summoner filling multiple roles, fine... but should they have added rogue in when there is already so many other DD classes? Should there only be 2 healer classes available? Should there only be 2 tanks?(yes i know they are adding dark knight) Other mmo's are not afraid to add a bunch of classes that fill the same position, everyone wants their own flavor on how they want to play the game. You want DOT warlock ice cream while i want classic FF summoner Ice cream. We both have our own preference, i HIGHLY doubt that the game would go to crap just because they changed 1 job. Hell i think more people than ever would be playing summoner, just like everyone now is playing rogue, despite the fact that there is like 5 DD classes..

As you yourself answered, the rogue/ninja was added for flavor. In general it's far easier to add damage classes to an MMO than any other class. The other problem is that your preference for the summoner class, which only existed in FFXI doesn't fit in the design of this game. Akiza and you have repeatedly demonstrated that neither one of you actually understand why the summoner class was designed along the lines of a pet+DoT class (which existed long before the warlock class in WoW). Before you can start asking for changes, it helps to understand the design guidelines.

[Deliciou5]

Quick Summoning:
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Cast time: Instant
Allows you quickly summon a pet for no MP cost.



That's a pretty high gamble to make. What's to say many people playing Summoner right now prefer the DoT/pet hybrid? Why not just make the pet class something that fits it better like Beastmaster? At least BST has been pretty consistent in what "feel" it has. I, on the other hand, think there would be great unrest if Summoner was to be overhauled now, or in the future to be nothing like it is now.

Baseball games are played with bases as squares. Some people do not like that they are squares and would rather they be neon coloured bath mats. MLB decides to change them to the neon coloured bath mats because the voices of the few.

This is more or less most of the arguments put forth by those wanting rework. Something simple => something ridiculous. There's a reason why people like you and Akiza are met with such "hostility", you try to reinvent the wheel. It's not reasonable to break something that isn't broken based on feelings. Especially when there is a very small sample size you're working with in *who* wants the change (need in-game census to be sure).

So going forward, if you're not interested in working within the system, people in this forum aren't going to take you seriously if you don't want to play by the rules.



Which is very easily extended to you.

Quick-summon is not a bad ability...however when black mage gets fire/blizard/thunder 4 and starts doing more damage than you....what then?A ability that makes it easier to summon your pet does not add to your damage. You specifically created that ability to serve what you want for the job now, not what would be realistic for levels 51-60. That is why i do not offer QoL ideas...I repeatedly stated in earlier posts that i have made these ideas for future updates. MY ideas do not have to completely redesign/overhaul the previous abilities of the job but could be introduced when level cap increases.

You example of baseball mats is...strange... you assume because i want something that means i am being emotional and for some reason i shouldn't want something because it would make the job more satisfying for me to play.The only reason anyone would suggest any ideas at all is because they think the ideas they are suggesting is making it more fun to play. Isn't it the same vein of logic as you if your idea with quick-summon that makes your job easier which in turns makes it less tedious and more fun to play?

Also ....."Which is very easily extended to you."? You imply that very few people would want this change even though there is no basis for that assumption.Was that not kinda the whole point of my post to dwill...yet you not only criticize me with quoting me out of context as if i didn't know any better but then you yourself made a similar assumption in your baseball example?

You say it will turn from simple into ridiculous, not only is that an opinion, but also ideas can be changed and redesigned to be less "ridiculous".

If you said something like....

"Well many of your spells make the job have a lot more buffs than what other jobs have, also sharing buffs with other jobs like WHM kinda take away from their uniqueness...it's just not consistent with the current design model we need abilities that fit within the current set number limit of the job's design."

I would be like..." OH wow!You are right! Maybe i should think of a new idea to fit within the ability limit of what is already there! Maybe i should introduce wards for attacking/buffs like FFXI summoner had. Therefore, people wouldn't have a bunch of macros on bar anymore!It would also fit within the set limit and be consistent with other jobs!"

Then you would say..."Wouldn't that stop your idea from auto-summoning through abilities to not work anymore and because the ward abilities require your pet to already be out?Therefore making the class gimp again because the pet could start dieing and becoming a burden like before?"

Then finally "Oh snap! You are absolutely right! Wow, unless we made the different pets on the macro bar somehow be combined with ward abilities, i don't know how my idea would pan out! I guess i have to figure out what I can do to make auto-summon work so pets won't be a burden and i can still fit it within the set limitations of the job."

That my friend is a constructive argument that convinces me that you are right.Now look at what everyone else is saying...do you see anything like that? No. they do not look at things from my side, they are children who keep attacking my credibility instead of debating of why the abilities would or would not work.You all make "Statements" not arguments. Even when they make arguments they argue about the feasibility of SE even implementing these changes instead of discussing the ideas themselves.

That is why i cannot take a lot of people on this thread seriously, they do not even want to ENTERTAIN the idea could work. They rather attack it as if there was a chance of it being implemented if they took it seriously for a moment. Remember that dwill was saying i shouldn't compare a job like witchdoctor from diablo 3 to summoner....even though he did not even say what individual aspects i was comparing..or even acknowledging that i was using it as a springboard for my own idea. It's arguments like those that end up dragging everything through the mud. No details are given if the detail could potential even be used to support my arguments in the slightlest, he has to always argue from a position that cannot be refuted in his mind.

"Why argue on a idea basis when i can just avoid allowing that discussion to even happen?"

It's manipulative and tries to make me think that my ideas are erroneous and hold no water. In a way it's the smart thing to do, but when you realize that it doesn't actually address the entire argument and just cherry picks what is convenient for their narrative you begin to see how it cannot be taken seriously. It doesn't even allow the discussion to happen, it's like if a politician insisted that global warming doesn't exist instead of arguing of how unfeasible it would be to fix it.They don't want you to fix it, so they prevent the argument from even happening.

That is exactly the kind of logic alot of people use..."telling" me what the facts are instead acknowledging that you could be wrong. Dwill tries to convince in this last post that the job will never change...really? At level 60 when the level cap raises(and it will, like every other mmo that ever existed) Black mages get thunder IV and Dwill the summoner gets nothing to be on par with other jobs?

Are you freaking kidding me!? He is SO stuck in his own argument that he cannot even acknowledge that the job will eventually change even if takes a level cap increase to do it. Yet he keeps responding pretending like i am wasting my time suggesting ideas for the future. Have you any of you ever considered that OTHER JOBS WILL CHANGE? That OTHER JOBS will get new ways to play? As a result summoner may very have to change to KEEP UP?Summoner currently is a DD job....how many DD jobs will change due to a level cap increase?You want more DOT from 51-60? Really?

This is the fundamental truth none of you seem to grasp. Even if my ideas are overpowered when in tandem with each other you seem to think that none of my ideas would hold water individually. You seem to think that if you embarrass me enough or discredit me enough or whatever the hell is going through your minds when you write your posts that somehow even if i do start to make sense that due to the fact that i made prior mistakes all my future ideas will be garbage? I am sorry but NO. Not for a second. Not even a little bit.

You are all acting WAY more selfish than me on just about every level that it is sickening. Many of you seem to think that you have to reply to my posts, and if i don't understand your logic then there must be something that is wrong with me...not the other way around. I honestly feel like i am being bullied by a group of people who want to rebel against all forms of authority whatsoever and that they have the "too cool for school" mentality. None of them would ever be caught doing something that isn't "Cool". Just like none of you would be caught discussing anything i say from a perspective that discusses the PRO's and CON's of my ideas since you insist on not taking my ideas seriously. You don't want the ideas to have any merit so you avoid even talking about them in any meaningful way. You only talk about the con's.

Now do you understand?Probably not. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you said TL;DR.

I am going to now write a post that fundamentally changes summoner to redmage/warlock and make a new class for summoner to be based off of. Probably won't hear from me again until tomorrow.

[Delily]

Are you freaking kidding me!? He is SO stuck in his own argument that he cannot even acknowledge that the job will eventually change even if takes a level cap increase to do it. Yet he keeps responding pretending like i am wasting my time suggesting ideas for the future. Have you any of you ever considered that OTHER JOBS WILL CHANGE? That OTHER JOBS will get new ways to play? As a result summoner may very have to change to KEEP UP?Summoner currently is a DD job....how many DD jobs will change due to a level cap increase?You want more DOT from 51-60? Really?

Of course those jobs will change. They have to, thanks to MUDflation and the perception of strength. This does not mean SE is going to fundamentally redesign all the classes, it means in addition to adding gear, they're going to add new skills and traits inline with the class's design. Summoners are a DoT + pet class, we'll get additional egis, probably level 3 of all spells, and some a few new additional Aetherflow abilities. They're not going to go hog wild because it will simply be too much. Why do you think Blizzard in WoW 6.0 is removing skills?

his is the fundamental truth none of you seem to grasp. Even if my ideas are overpowered when in tandem with each other you seem to think that none of my ideas would hold water individually. You seem to think that if you embarrass me enough or discredit me enough or whatever the hell is going through your minds when you write your posts that somehow even if i do start to make sense that due to the fact that i made prior mistakes all my future ideas will be garbage? I am sorry but NO. Not for a second. Not even a little bit.

You are all acting WAY more selfish than me on just about every level that it is sickening. Many of you seem to think that you have to reply to my posts, and if i don't understand your logic then there must be something that is wrong with me...not the other way around. I honestly feel like i am being bullied by a group of people who want to rebel against all forms of authority whatsoever and that they have the "too cool for school" mentality. None of them would ever be caught doing something that isn't "Cool". Just like none of you would be caught discussing anything i say from a perspective that discusses the PRO's and CON's of my ideas since you insist on not taking my ideas seriously. You don't want the ideas to have any merit so you avoid even talking about them in any meaningful way. You only talk about the con's.

The problem is that you have to prove you understand why the summoner in FFXIV is a "DoT+pet" class. The designers have given very explicit reasons why this is so, from mechanics to lore. All of your ideas fly in the face of that, solely so you can have an FFXI style summoner.

You are all acting WAY more selfish than me on just about every level that it is sickening. Many of you seem to think that you have to reply to my posts, and if i don't understand your logic then there must be something that is wrong with me...not the other way around. I honestly feel like i am being bullied by a group of people who want to rebel against all forms of authority whatsoever and that they have the "too cool for school" mentality. None of them would ever be caught doing something that isn't "Cool". Just like none of you would be caught discussing anything i say from a perspective that discusses the PRO's and CON's of my ideas since you insist on not taking my ideas seriously. You don't want the ideas to have any merit so you avoid even talking about them in any meaningful way. You only talk about the con's.

Seriously, stop posting on this thread. Just stop. This is a discussion about class design in video game forum. If you're this emotional over it, you need to stop posting. Unless you're working for Square or are involved in game design, it's not worth it. It's fun yes, but I think you need to get away for a little while.