Red Mage - A DoM Tank Job?

[GalkaBikini]

Yeah Duelle, RDM has a sword, but why swing with it when you can do 10 times the amount of damage with a nuke?

[Radacci]

Radicci, lol. Not once did I mention FFXI in my post, we were mostly talking about the single player games. Goodness.

i misquoted "not to mention this is going on while people are taking damage, and the RDM isn't healing anyone because showing off is more important to him." if you're showing off to other ppl, then i'm assuming you're talking about XI. or are you talking about showing off to your single-player companions?
other games don't matter, it's pointless to discuss their mechanics, in XIV forum; if you want to discuss RDM, do it from a XIV perspective.
From a XIV perspective, all physical DD, have about the same DPS. or isn't MNK a real melee, cause DRG hits harder? Bows are the 2nd weakest wep, in game...so i guess BRD is really shitty DD?
if they make RDM into melee DD, it will be as good as any other DD, so other games don't matter; there's no such thing as *how RDM SHOULD be played* there's just how they make it work, in XIV.

[Duelle]

Yeah Duelle, RDM has a sword, but why swing with it when you can do 10 times the amount of damage with a nuke?

Again, you're looking at a system where everything was standalone and the rules were pretty much blanket rules without individual scaling per job.

Wanting RDM to be less of this and more of this is not a bad thing, by the way.

[Redgate]

sic

So basically you want RDM to be another WHM because you don't understand why people actually like Red Mage, and because you used Red Mage in a certain way?

Am I getting this right?

Because if that's the case, how about you just don't invite RDM to your party, and never play it if it sucks that much to you, and let me have the class I actually want?

[GalkaBikini]

See what I mean? This topic can hardly be discussed without people getting their feelings hurt. When SE finally releases the class, its going to be a T total crapstorm. Duelle, there's also nothing wrong with people wanting RDM to be what it actually is: a supportive hybrid.

[GalkaBikini]

I've never once said in this thread what I want for RDM. I've only reiterated what it actually has been in the series so far. But Redgate, since you asked, I'd like to see RDM be SE's vision for the class, not the player's vision. And I didn't use RDM a "certain" way. I used it the most effective way.

I've met so many hilarious red mages that just want to melee and not even cast any spells. It's amazing. If you want to be a flashy melee why not play DRG or NIN instead?

[Duelle]

Duelle, there's also nothing wrong with people wanting RDM to be what it actually is: a supportive hybrid.

Once again, you're missing the point. You can make your RDMs in console FFs buffbots because again, you're limited by turn-based combat. Turn-based combat simply does not allow for mixing the three main disciplines that make up a Red Mage because you're playing to use your turns efficiently to win the battle.

Real-time combat makes it possible, but requires the job to be designed with that from the ground up while allowing mechanics that create synergy between the three elements of the Red Mage. This is where FFXI dropped the ball because they basically gave the job weak melee, weak white magic and weak black magic with nothing to create synergy between the three, just like it was designed in the console FFs. That's the reason why it was mostly useless and had to be turned into a refresh-bot and healer to get spots in parties.

Enspells was a step in the right direction but they never took it further, much to the job's detriment. The saddest part is that it was the ideal way to let the job close the gap between it and the other melee DPS. Simply put, if a brute force guy deals 20 physical damage with a sword, a red mage would deal 10 physical damage with a sword and 10 magical damage through a sword enchant (the 10 extra damage could also come from a self-buff that allows the Red Mage to hit harder or even weaving spells with sword strikes). The gap is nonexistent despite the brute force guy being physically stronger than the red mage, and that's the idea that should be followed.

[Rosalynd]

<snip for 1000 limit>

This was almost painful to read.

In single player games a RDM's effectiveness would revolve around how the rest of your party was built. For example in FF5 i would often have my RDM using offensive black magic and melee weapons as it tore things apart, i left the buffing and healing to the WHM and/or similar classes i was using.

From what i understand the community of XI was as cruel to RDM as the vanilla WoW community was to paladins and shaman. They were capable of doing good damage on their own but the stigma they had as buff/totem bots caused them to sit in the back row buffing/healing the raid for a month before they got bored and quit the game or their guild.

Also, if people wanted to play NIN or DRG, they would, but people wanted to play RDM and play it as they used it in previous games, a battlemage.

[GalkaBikini]

Duelle, not all FFs are turn based. And RDMs white and black magic was not weak. o_O; RDMs magic not the best, but it's a heck of a lot better than their melee. And seriously, why on earth would you bridge the gap between RDM melee and a real melee? That is not how you balance a hybrid......... Sigh.

Red Mages never have, and never will be, on par or anywhere close to on par with a real melee class. You'd think after 25 years of Final Fantasy, people might finally get it?

Rosalynd, if you are playing FF5 that way, you are playing it inefficiently. You have no reason to have both a RDM and a WHM in your party in FF5, for one. Obviously, you can play however you want, but the fact remains that you your party setup isn't optimal.

[GalkaBikini]

I'll say it again, it is all math. There are definitely situations in all of the Final Fantasy games where a RDM's melee can be useful, but those are not common and it will almost always be more efficient mathematically to have a RDM curing or nuking. For most of the time, meleeing with a RDM is mathematically inefficient. You cannot deny these facts. Although honestly most of the Final Fantasy games are pretty imbalanced, it's still the goal of the developer to design and balance the classes, and it's pretty obvious that SE has never wanted RDMs in any Final Fantasy to take meleeing that seriously. If SE wanted RDMs to melee as good as a real melee class, they probably would, don't you think? Which is why it is completely baffling that even after 25 years, people will still CHOOSE to be disappointed by wanting more out of RDM melee, when they could simply play a class better suited to what they are looking for.