It's about time to add Coil story mode, isn't it ?

[subteraneanbird]

It's not about it being relative or not. It's about it being inaccurate because it is a sample of unknown proportion to the whole.

Math, people.

[Shiwayari]

While I understand many of the arguments, I still do not understand why do you actually want a specifically tuned down version, with removed mechanics at worst, just to see the story? This is not sarcasm or anything, I honestly do not understand. If you want to see the story, SE can, and I think should give everyone a way to see it, as long as it is not too soon after the content is released. But, I absolutely do not see why they should go and develop another version of month-old content just for that. For example, they could simply unlock the cutscenes in your inn without having to do any fight. Or, if you really want to experience from inside the dungeon, just let you enter a version, but with all monsters and bosses removed. I think that would be the quickest to "develop", just a few menu options really.

Now I do not understand, if you just want to see the story, but do not want to do the fight, why is what I suggested above not enough? What do you really want? A coil-version on Storymode Primal level? Okay, I can say that would be a true waste of development time, even if it took only one day. How many times do you beat content like that, honestly? Once, maybe twice, but not anywhere near enough times to justify putting money and time into something that already exists in a form that can be done "moderately" easy if you put some time into it (talking about Coil 1 with Echo), and guess what, Coil is designed for you to put time into. The only reason something like this would be good for as actual content would be if they somehow made it viable to farm like they did with many things with the recent Nexus upgrade of the relic quest. But just for that, I still think that would be a waste of money and time.

Lets assume there was no echo, Coil 1 would still be somewhat "hard", at least T5 to an extent, at that point I would understand your request, and SE has already granted it, by giving you the echo. If you want to do a T5-like fight, but not that hard, there you have it, a T5 with Echo. It is content for you to do, which takes some time, a bit more than 1 hour. That is what a game should do, give you content which takes time. The story also takes time, but the Primal fights of it by themselves, take very little of it. That is why there are harder versions. It would be a complete waste of development time and a loss of a lot of money to design these fights just do be done a single time to advance a story. If the game wants to survive, it needs to utilize the content is has to offer in a way that takes time, a lot of time, to do.

So, I really agree with SE having put an Echo-buff on coil, it is one of the simplest, most effienct ways to keep the game alive. It opens this part of the game for a much larger audience that it did before Echo.

What I do absolutely not agree with, is giving anyone who beat T5 with Echo access to Coil 2 without Echo, because that creates a very unhealthy situation (if you want to read more on that I made a post in a similar thread here).

I think what would be the best for the game, to support keeping it alive, would be this:

__Savage version: For the very engaged raider__
- Takes a very long time to complete <- this is why this content works, even though there is no incentive to complete it more than once.
- Gives the same loot as normal version
- Gives a title (the only reason to do this, beside having fun of course)

__Normal version: For the usual raider__
- Takes a long time to complete
- Gives the best gear in the game (this keeps it alive until the next tier is released)
- Unlocks the next tier of Coil
- Unlocks savage version of same tier

__Echo version: For the players that just seek a fun experience__
- Is added 6 months after the normal version
- Takes a moderate amount of time to complete
- Gives same loot as normal version (not the best anymore at the time this becomes available)
- Unlocks the next tier of Echo-version Coil (again, 6 months after normal version)

__Story option: For players unintrested in engaging fights__
- Is added after the whole set of this content is completed (e.g. after Coil 3)
- Let's you enter the dungeons, but there are no enemies or bosses, only cutscenes.
- Unlocks the Story option for the next raid-content, after this next content has been completed.



The content they give us needs to be in relation with the amount of time they spend on developing it.
-> They develop coil (which ends up as savage mode) for the very hardcore raiders, which is a too-small of a fraction of players to justify putting it in the game as it is.
-> They tone down their developed coil for the normal raider, giving a large enough fraction of players something to do for months.
-> They give us Echo, to give a larger amount of player (those who are actually intrested in doing the fights) a chance at progressing through this content without having to spend as much time, or having to stick to a static. For those who don't have that much time or will to do it, it will last a while longer. For those who have time and will but did not clear yet because of things like having no static, this does not last very long, but putting "Echo" on the content is simple enough to justify making this available.
-> They give us a story option, which will barely last 1 or 2 hours for anyone. This is for players who want to enjoy the story, but do not want to do the fights. This keeps those players happy, and consumes very little development time for very little content.


Again I think, Echo is a really good idea to keep this content alive in a way that does not waste their development time spent on all the fights because it does not remove any mechanics, while still making it easier. It just should not unlock the next-tier normal version, but thats a different discussion i already linked above.

For everyone asking for an even more watered-down version, and for everyone thinking they should not allow anyone to see the story without beating the normal version, for whatever reason. I think those "demands" might be a bit too focused on personal game and a bit too far from the reality of them needing to keep the game alive. No game is your ideal "Please give me this because many people want it" nor "Please dont give them that because they have to work for it" etc.
Next time you try to make an argument to why SE should actually implement it, take a while to think about if it actually would work, not from an in-game stand point, but from an economical standpoint.
You can always make a point why something should or should not be in the game for the games reasons, but be aware that might not have anything to do with a real possibility of it actually happening.


____________________________________________________________________________________________

It's not about it being relative or not. It's about it being inaccurate because it is a sample of unknown proportion to the whole.

Math, people.

Just adding this, not for the discussions sake, but... what?
If you have a percentage, the total amount is mostly irrelevant.

There is a probability for any part of the whole to have beaten T5. Now randomly pick a random, unknown number of parts out of the whole and form a sub-set. The probability that any part of this sub-set of the whole has beaten T5 is still exactly the same. In fact, it is a probability refering to a single person to begin with.
The only information you get from knowing the size of the whole and the sub-set, or proprotions if you want to call it that, is the probability of getting sub-sets in a state that are farther away from the state of the whole.

If the whole has 4 parts, 2 are "X" and 2 are "O", the "real" percentage you would be looking for in this case would be 50%.
Now randomly pick a sub-set of 2. You can get "X X", "O O", "X O". 33% of these subsets give you the exact same percentage of the whole, 50%.
66% of the sub-sets are far away for the "truth" of the whole, they give 100% and 0%. Now if you increase the size of the whole, and the size of the subsets, the probability to get a subset that has a similar distribution to the whole goes up.
If you know both the whole and the subset have a large number of parts, the divergence is low, assuming the subset is picked uniformly random. No matter the proportions. You still don't know how low "low" is, but thats the nature of probabilites.. not much of a point discussing it.

It might not be a very accurate number, but it is far from being "worthless".

[Moqi]

What does pc players vs console have to do with anything? Like why did that come up at all?

People claim % of ppl who cleared T5 on ps is not an accurate estimate cos it doesn't consider PC players. Like the numbers would be much different /eyeroll

[Sapphic]

That is a downright lie.

Where's your supporting evidence whilst calling me a liar?

Of course it is, you beat the content and you are able to see the story progression. Gear is a means to continue progression and see the story. Same with every RPG, whether it's single or multiplayer.

But yeah, they could add a "story mode" coil, when coil is no longer relevant, aka with the expansion. As by then practically no-one will be running it anyways.

[IveraIvalice]

People claim % of ppl who cleared T5 on ps is not an accurate estimate cos it doesn't consider PC players. Like the numbers would be much different /eyeroll

Even if we had that information to an exact number that doesn't do anything for the topic of this thread in the slightest.
It's about all players as a whole. Not what you play on

[Moqi]

Even if we had that information to an exact number that doesn't do anything for the topic of this thread in the slightest.
It's about all players as a whole. Not what you play on

You don't have to tell me. But some people believe most players downed T5 when they're actually still a small minority.

[Kuwagami]

had to snip cuz way too long to quote, sorry man :x

THIS is actually a great read on the discussion. Even though the separation on Normal/echo would not stand due to the "already happened" stuff (or rather, the echo mode now totally replaces normal mode, and gives access to the next normal mode tier).

I did not consider a "no fight" version because of some stuff happening in the CS (yeah I have been spoiled long ago on T9) which wouldn't make that much sense without at least a fight.

I still do not understand why do you actually want a specifically tuned down version, with removed mechanics at worst, just to see the story?

It's just what I came up with thinking of :
=> needs to be doable (or can be hard carried) by all
=> should keep a fight.

removing the unforgiving OH-KO is the simplest way to do it with the minimal amount of development needed, but I stated myself that it was probably a terrible idea that I had just thrown to give a way of thinking.


Anyway, thank you sir for your well developed post, which brings way more to the discussion than the "go work for it lazy guys" we had since the start

But yeah, they could add a "story mode" coil, when coil is no longer relevant, aka with the expansion. As by then practically no-one will be running it anyways.

sorry to burst your bubble, but the BCoB is already pretty desert and by no mean relevant now that 2.4 is on the way

[Sapphic]

sorry to burst your bubble, but the BCoB is already pretty desert and by no mean relevant now that 2.4 is on the way

Give players a hand and they demand the whole arm.

Let's say they added a story mode for the first coil next week, how long do you think before posts start appearing demanding scob have a story mode? That it should give rewards? That clearing turns in story mode should unlock normal mode turns also? Then when 2.4 lands, same thing.

Coil isn't that difficult, it's simply that players don't want to make an effort. TBH, coil does not require hours a week to progress. Start a PF and advertise for players that can fit into your schedule or are happy to just run when everyone is online together. Get them in an LS so easy to communicate. You can also send ingame mail to those not online in the LS.

Don't just wait for someone to hand things over.

[BloodPact]

I agree. Although the last time I set foot into T5 with the Echo buff I was astonished at the massive dip in difficulty that the instance had gone through, I know there are people who still will have problems with the one-hit-KO parts of the fight. It is extremely reasonable to add a story only progression to a content that in a couple of months would be over a year old. +1.

[Taika]

I hope that at some point SE will release the number of players having defeated each fight. As for T5, it's hard for me to believe not that many people would have beaten it by now. I just checked the numbers for my own LS and out of 30 currently active members only 4 haven't beaten it (that I know of). Would like to hear corresponding numbers for other FC/LS if anyone wants to bother, as the estimates of player % who have beaten it have been thrown around here.

We organise LS events for T5 for all members who wish to beat the fight. We have a guide for it on our forums with all mechanics explained in writing and with a video. So far we haven't seen a player who would be unable to learn it or beat it, and the latest T5 event I took part in got the win in less than an hour. I really can't see how this is too much, too "hardcore", or requiring too much commitment from anyone.