Honest question: If every player/class/job is equal,who is unique? (Gameplay topic)

[Lemuria]

To be fair, the OP has a point. Classes have no DEFINING characteristic which makes one more useful than the other for a particular type of content. The mechanics might change, but it's just window dressing, and has no real impact on gameplay. In my opinion, the only exception to this rule is tanks, where Paladin still reigns supreme in high end content simply because of the crazy damage that a warrior would take in the same situation, putting too much stress on the healers.

Still, one exception does not a rule make and it would be nice if classes had unique abilities which make them truly stand out from the crowd. Some would argue it would promote excluding certain classes from content, I would argue it would promote a wider range of classes being invited.

[Duelle]

Some would argue it would promote excluding certain classes from content, I would argue it would promote a wider range of classes being invited.

Except that's not how it works. The moment one class becomes superior to others for specific content, people will stack that class and give everyone else the middle finger. FFXI saw this. WoW saw this. I'm pretty sure Lineage II saw this, too.

Variety is already pseudo-encouraged in group comps because of the small penalty to building the LB gauge when having multiples of the same class, not to mention keeping the loot pools from boss mobs in mind. At the same time, having more than one of every job is not detrimental to the run, so we're actually in a very good place design-wise. We can have a "one of each" comp and a "some repeats but roles are covered" comp and still be able to clear content. Why you would destroy that so that a few can feel unique and special is beyond me.

It only means they are unable to see what others can see.　That's not a problem of the classes, it's a problem with the observer (OP).

For relevance;

I love you for this.

PS: Mechanics are the best place for variety between jobs and classes. The fact that MNK has greased lightning while DRG has relatively unforgiving positional requirements does make those two play and feel differently despite being competitive against each other AND fulfilling the role of melee DPS. PLD and WAR actually are very different because of the approach to tanking each take. BLM and SMN also are distinct from one another without making groups take one over the other, and that is a good thing in the long run.

[Lemuria]

Except that's not how it works. The moment one class becomes superior to others for specific content, people will stack that class and give everyone else the middle finger. FFXI saw this. WoW saw this. I'm pretty sure Lineage II saw this, too.

See, that's the problem. Not that a job has an advantage against X or Y, but that the advantage is perceived as being some kind of exclusive one-way door to content. It's people's perceptions that need to change first.

People like to conveniently forget about many of the mechanics FFXIV swept under the rug in the name of evening the playing field, and the selfsame mechanics which FFXI used to make each class shine in their own right. The real savior would be to bring back weaknesses and resistances. Have mobs which are highly resilient to damage aside from blunt, piercing or slashing damage, for example. This would encourage players to bring along dragoons and bards for piercing, or Monks for blunt damage. Mobs which are resilient to melee, but weak to magic encourages you to bring along summoners and black mages.

Is it really so hard a concept for people to grasp that having an advantage over a target need not exclude anyone? Most of the game revolves around instanced dungeons, which means players have a variety of jobs working towards the same goal. This isn't FFXI where the open world is your battlefield. Having a reason to create a balanced party may be just what this game needs going forwards.

PLD and WAR actually are very different because of the approach to tanking each take.

Yes... one is basically a HP sink, while the other actually defends.

[Duelle]

See, that's the problem. Not that a job has an advantage against X or Y, but that the advantage is perceived as being some kind of exclusive one-way door to content. It's people's perceptions that need to change first.

Expecting people to change their perceptions is wasted time and effort. People as a rule go for the path of least resistance, and that becomes the norm. Regardless of the game in question, trends do form and the community follows them. This is why I've argued that the developers should do their best to influence and keep the trends under control instead of doing whatever and then letting things fall where they may.

Is it really so hard a concept for people to grasp that having an advantage over a target need not exclude anyone?

Regardless of what your intention is, exclusion is pretty much imminent because what you're describing invites that sort of behavior from players. Gameplay and mechanics (and imbalances if left unfixed) have always had a very strong influence on player behavior.

Having a reason to create a balanced party may be just what this game needs going forwards.

As I've said, variety is currently encouraged. What the game doesn't do is force variety on the player, and that is a good thing. Otherwise you have issues like Instructor Razuvious, an encounter that could not be cleared unless you had two shadow priests in the raid.

Balanced party comps already exist, but they are determined by the roles of the trinity. This is also fine. Loot distribution also has a hand in wanting to form a balanced comp (especially since unlike WoW and SWTOR you cannot break down gear into enchanting mats/mods for the raid to roll on if no one needs/wants it). it just happens naturally over the game forcing you into it 100% of the time.

[PArcher]

Yes... one is basically a HP sink, while the other actually defends.

Lol

When played properly, WAR are better tanks than Pld in almost everything. The "problem" with WAR is that they require a really good player to be better than the ones spamming 1-2-3 and occasionally pressing something else. They also are MUCH better OTs than Pld due to their utility (esp their non-aggressive combos).

Find a really good WAR and then see what you think. However...it's like finding a really good DRG, so you'll just keep favoring the job that's much easier to play...

[Aegis]

FFXIV's progression is strictly vertical where as FFXI's progression (at least when I last played, which was the launch of the first Abyssea expansion) was mostly horizontal.

Perhaps moving to horizontal progression would be good for the game? Certainly adds longevity for content. When the expansion releases do you believe anyone will do coil anymore? Already no-one does Coil 1 except to access Coil 2. Sky gear was valid for a solid decade. Even though XI had much, much more endgame.

While classes were "unique" it also meant that only certain classes were brought to the table. Going meriting? SAM SAM SAM BRD WHM. Wanna play a BST, BLM, or SMN? Better love to solo from 1-75. Classism is BAD for a game. The more you ostracise your player base, the less likely they will keep playing. Even during the FFXI era players always took the path to least resistance. Every zerg encounter was: BRD rotations for super buffs, throw as many SAM as you can, unless you had a reliced DRK, perhaps a MNK or two for hundred fists, couple of healers outside the party and a THF to tag the mob with a Thief Knife just in case Treasure Hunter actually worked. Every other job could just sit and watch until that one or two instances they might be useful. Everything you suggest would make the game worse than it currently is.

Black Mage was, for a long time one of the most popular levelling jobs because of its ability to Magic Burst. It was one of the most popular endgame jobs for sleep/nukes. I levelled my BLM after Aht Urgahn and never solo'd. Used to form up in parties of 3 or 4 and get excellent XP in pet camps. This being another example of how having different classes actually playing differently is a good thing. I saw more camps than people who did not play BLM. I learnt new mechanics of the game.

No, this is what makes you feel like your job is useless and makes you feel like "that dumbass n00b who doesn't even know how to play this game rite". We have already seen this on at least two separate occasions in the history just of 2.xx. We know from empirical evidence that the XIV fanbase WILL act this way and WILL ostracize gamers who want to play an "unpopular" class. If this is what you want then you are in the wrong game.

But you can have all the jobs. This game is not designed for someone to get one class to 50 and forget about levelling. Such a player would be ostracized even if they picked the 'right' job.

PS: Mechanics are the best place for variety between jobs and classes. The fact that MNK has greased lightning while DRG has relatively unforgiving positional requirements does make those two play and feel differently

They don't really play differently, though, do they? Get in position, weapon skill. Move into next position, weapon skill. Weave in buffs and off-GCDs when you can. They both have one best rotation, if you're not doing it you're sub-optimal DPS. Yawn.

[Dwill]

Perhaps moving to horizontal progression would be good for the game? Certainly adds longevity for content. When the expansion releases do you believe anyone will do coil anymore? Already no-one does Coil 1 except to access Coil 2. Sky gear was valid for a solid decade. Even though XI had much, much more endgame.

And you don't see anything wrong with having the same pieces of gears for years on end ?

They don't really play differently, though, do they? Get in position, weapon skill. Move into next position, weapon skill. Weave in buffs and off-GCDs when you can. They both have one best rotation, if you're not doing it you're sub-optimal DPS. Yawn.

If you find that boring, then the whole get 100% TP, pop cooldowns and use Weapon Skills style of FFXI must have been a snore fest to you.

Edit: Everyone has a full opener but after that, the rotation becomes a priority system when you have to deal with mechanics.

Yes I already know they have these qualities and I suppose mentioning them in the OP would have been a good idea but I saw little point in it at the time.

However, you've simply proven my point further. The facts you've pointed out are merely core mechanics to their class and I'd be shocked and appalled if these weren't included to begin with. Beyond these core mechanics though, what does each class have to offer?

What skill or passive ability makes the Black Mage shine when accompanied by the Summoner?

What skill makes the Monk stand out from the Bard or the Dragoon in the party?

What skill does the white Mage have that makes it stand out next to the Scholar in an 8man party?

Having trouble coming up with an answer?

That's my point.

Read Extal's reply, it's pretty spot on.

[Aegis]

And you don't see anything wrong with having the same pieces of gears for years on end ?

Honestly? Not even a little bit. That piece of gear would take years to obtain. 6 mo to level your first job was pretty typical. Most people wouldn't have full Homam (for example) until years after when they started. Or Byakko's Haidate until they have been farming sky for months. The piece of gear was something you were proud of, something you built your gearset around. When next coil comes around, HA will have been BIS for what? 6 months? And you will be able to get gear better than it from whatever new tomes they release. One of these systems sounds rewarding to me, the other is like a cat chasing a mouse on a string.

If you find that boring, then the whole get 100% TP, pop cooldowns and use Weapon Skills style of FFXI must have been a snore fest to you.

Is that all you remember from XI. You don't remember organising skill chains and magic bursts? Setting up SATAs, BRD maintaining 4 or 5 song rotations? Samurais and Blue Magics Self-SC'ing? The list can go on and on. It sounds like you're pretty jaded about XI.

That's just lore. Otherwise it's just all the same.
Ancient magics are just like normal spell except longer casting time and piss poor damage compared to MP cost.
Blue mage spells are just spells, except the way you get them from monsters and how you allocate them. You have the damage spells, the healing spells, some utility ones and that's it.
Ninja is not the best evasion class because Thief is the one with more evasion bonus traits. And everybody had the utsusemi.
If you are talking about melee DPS in FFXI, everybody is just in autoattack while waiting for TP to do TP attack

Yeah, Ancient Magics weren't particularly well used, but a team of BLMs were used to sleep/nuke down mobs that were melee resistant or otherwise dangerous. BLM were also the DD of choice for SKillchains/Magic Burst

Blue Magic was very, very different to other magics. They followed not only the elemental wheel, but also the monster afinity chart (this was why MP Drainkiss for example was extremely effective on Colibri), they weren't affected by magic reflection abilities, they could be used as either part of a self-skillchain or a magic burst on that same skillchain. More than just that, they were spells with the shortest cast times, aimed to be used in melee combat. Saying they were the same as other spells means you are either forgetting how they actually were or are deliberately misrepresenting them.

And as for the melee DD, they all played very differently. Thieves were pulling mobs, orgainising the rest of the party into SATA positions. Dancers were using steps, sambas and flourishes along with their weaponskills, DRG were subbing mages and using healing breaths to solo mobs other jobs just couldn't. RDM were solo'ing gods.

So much more variety in roles.

[XNihili]

Yeah, Ancient Magics weren't particularly well used, but a team of BLMs were used to sleep/nuke down mobs that were melee resistant or otherwise dangerous. BLM were also the DD of choice for SKillchains/Magic Burst

Blue Magic was very, very different to other magics. They followed not only the elemental wheel, but also the monster afinity chart (this was why MP Drainkiss for example was extremely effective on Colibri), they weren't affected by magic reflection abilities, they could be used as either part of a self-skillchain or a magic burst on that same skillchain. More than just that, they were spells with the shortest cast times, aimed to be used in melee combat. Saying they were the same as other spells means you are either forgetting how they actually were or are deliberately misrepresenting them.

And as for the melee DD, they all played very differently. Thieves were pulling mobs, orgainising the rest of the party into SATA positions. Dancers were using steps, sambas and flourishes along with their weaponskills, DRG were subbing mages and using healing breaths to solo mobs other jobs just couldn't. RDM were solo'ing gods.

So much more variety in roles.

Of course it's a blatant exaggeration. But the BLU spamming spells are not that far from the current DPS abilities "spamming" except with the GCD.
There are currently 2 melee DPS in FFXIV and they are using positioning quite differently. They are about as different as FFXI DRG and MNK while in XP party.

[Aegis]

Of course it's a blatant exaggeration. But the BLU spamming spells are not that far from the current DPS abilities "spamming" except with the GCD.
There are currently 2 melee DPS in FFXIV and they are using positioning quite differently. They are about as different as FFXI DRG and MNK while in XP party.

I think to an extent that's true, but Dragoon in XI had a wholely seperate mechanic (Wyvern and its healing/elemental breaths) that made it a very different beast when solo'ing.

Monk also had the Chi Blast setup, which ok, became redundant as players geared up and it wasn't necesary anymore. It also ahd a place in a zerg party that DRG didn't, but didn't have the place in a merit pt that DRG did.

If you were a 75 Dragoon, your options for approaching content were very different to a 75 Monk, even if the levelling process wasn't that different for you. And they were about as similar as jobs got in XI.

Edit: Also, if you were spamming magic as a Blue Mage and you didn't have a RDM, BRDand Corsair giving you refresh, you would run out of mp and lose overall DPS making you a bad Blue Mage.

(It was my favourite XI job - Thief and Bard came close, but not quite there)