Honest question: If every player/class/job is equal,who is unique? (Gameplay topic)

[abzoluut]

Would be fun to have more depth to the jobs. Unfortunately Yoshi wants new players to adapt easily which is okay. I don't see why easy jobs should be a result of this mindset. New players would adapt to the depth eventually too.

I still think a huge part of an MMO is mastering a (several) job(s).

I still have hope for 3.0. Please SE, drop 1.0's job remnant. Give yourelf better fundamentals to create (new) jobs without having to think of cross class/attributes which kills 80% of the fun options.

[Leigaon]

1. What sets apart one dps class from another besides the names of their skills and the graphics they show?
2. If all tanks get the same line of hate generating skills, what makes the PLD and WAR different beyond their skill names and weapons?
3. How is the sch and whm different from each other if they both heal the same way?
4. If the Novus weapons are so powerful, what use is there for crafters?
5. If the end game raid armors are so powerful, what use is there for crafters?

So, correct me if I'm wrong but I think from reading your post you're looking at something that keeps them in their roles but at the same time does something that makes them sort of stand out. Your PLD example temp immunity for 5 seconds, vs WAR getting the warcry. Things that give a job more of a "feel" of their jobs?

We will always have equal output from the jobs, the paths of which they do them will begin to vary. What's nice is I think SCH is a step in the right direction..that and I love manual pet management. I would like to see something like pld uses ability, cures to him get spread to nearby players and hate generated from additional cures goes to tank. A warcry feature would be fun, large AOE, something that isn't ground breaking but at the same time you feel "Yup..only I can do that."

My personal opinion is that just because an item has a higher iLV doesn't make it so much more useful. If you're charging up your base stats it is but if you take into account you can add in another whole useful stat and raise that up. But that's just me..so maybe that's the point of crafters. That or make money b/c that stuff sells high!

[Aegis]

We will always have equal output from the jobs, the paths of which they do them will begin to vary.

And that's depressing as hell. It's also not necessary. By determining a role's worth on just one metric you reduce the role to that metric. A DPS will never be anything other than a DPS because you measure it by its DPS. Content then becomes designed around those metrics. When they're designing bosses, they look at how much hps can be done under optimal circumstances, how much dps can be done under optimal circumstances and design the content and tune it to those figures.

It's just so ... sterile.

It means you'll never again see one person solo'ing a god.

[Exstal]

It's just so ... sterile.

It means you'll never again see one person solo'ing a god.

You shouldn't see that while content is still "cutting edge". That means something went wrong.

[Dwill]

And that's depressing as hell. It's also not necessary. By determining a role's worth on just one metric you reduce the role to that metric. A DPS will never be anything other than a DPS because you measure it by its DPS. Content then becomes designed around those metrics. When they're designing bosses, they look at how much hps can be done under optimal circumstances, how much dps can be done under optimal circumstances and design the content and tune it to those figures.

It's just so ... sterile.

It means you'll never again see one person solo'ing a god.

That's such an archaic view of thinking. Nobody should feel excluded because you want to feel special. Nobody likes being THE class that's terrible for an entire patch of content because the developers decided as much. Having everyone do close to the same DPS and having different playstyle is a good thing.

snip

Here's something for you to read to understand the point:

What you call "sameness", I call balance. The goal of balance is to be able to achieve the same result using different jobs:

Tanks:

• Paladins are less prone to spike damage, more mitigation tool, less damage, unlimited amount of stuns. Can Main tank and Off tank with ease.
• Warriors have a bigger HP pool, gets healed for more, more damage, unique resource system. Can Main tank and Off tank with ease.

Healers:

• White Mage: More focused toward raw healing than damage prevention.
• Scholar: More focused toward damage prevention than raw healing.

Ranged DPS:

• Black Mage: Caster that is more focused toward nukes and bursts, outstanding at AoE, unique resource system.
• Summoners: Caster that is more focused toward DoTs and constant steady output, uses a pet, hardly penalized by movement.
• Bards: Ranged damage dealers that uses TP instead of MP, great support abilities, amazing burst, not penalized by movement whatsoever.

Melee DPS:

• Monk: Uses a unique stance mechanics to deal its damage, extremely good single target damage, decent utility via Mantra.
• Dragoons: Uses the ever so popular Jumps, pretty good balance of single target and AoE damage, good gap closers.

It's the difference in playstyle and job mechanics that makes this game actually pretty well balanced. So of course, if it's balanced, the end result will be the same when people press their buttons. Tanks will tank, DPS will DPS and healers will heal so in the end, the only things that changes is how you achieve the results you want.

[Scootaloo]

snip

Yes I already know they have these qualities and I suppose mentioning them in the OP would have been a good idea but I saw little point in it at the time.

However, you've simply proven my point further. The facts you've pointed out are merely core mechanics to their class and I'd be shocked and appalled if these weren't included to begin with. Beyond these core mechanics though, what does each class have to offer?

What skill or passive ability makes the Black Mage shine when accompanied by the Summoner?

What skill makes the Monk stand out from the Bard or the Dragoon in the party?

What skill does the white Mage have that makes it stand out next to the Scholar in an 8man party?

Having trouble coming up with an answer?

That's my point.

[Exstal]

Yes I already know they have these qualities and I suppose mentioning them in the OP would have been a good idea but I saw little point in it at the time.

However, you've simply proven my point further. The facts you've pointed out are merely core mechanics to their class and I'd be shocked and appalled if these weren't included to begin with. Beyond these core mechanics though, what does each class have to offer?

What skill or passive ability makes the Black Mage shine when accompanied by the Summoner?

What does it matter who they are accompanied with? That counters your point of uniqueness. Unless you actually mean, "compared to the Summoner". In which I would say, Sleep and Flare.

What skill makes the Monk stand out from the Bard or the Dragoon in the party?

Howling Fist.

What skill does the white Mage have that makes it stand out next to the Scholar in an 8man party?

Medicara, Medica, Curaga.

Oops that's 3.

Having trouble coming up with an answer?

That's my point.

You just proved that you simply have no ability to see anything past your own nose.

[SulwynCaliope]

What skill does the white Mage have that makes it stand out next to the Scholar in an 8man party?

Even though lots of people have already answered this question, I will too as someone who actually mains a healer in SCoB.


The answer is AoE healing. Succor is TERRIBLE for patching up full parties quickly. Spamming it would only deplete mp very fast. Also while 2 SCH could heal party damage very decently with succor, half the power of succor would effectively be wasted.

SCH, on the other hand, have amazing single target healing and damage mitigation abilities. We can bring back a near dead tank and keep him up in health FAR more effectively than a WHM can. We can also prevent damage in general from being too overwhelming for the party to heal up. While, yes, it does mean it's easier for SCHs to patch up party damage using our weak (compared to WHM) AoE healing, one thing that shouldn't be forgotten is that SCH mitigation isn't stackable at all with itself. SE designed the classes to work TOGETHER to keep the party alive and the way each of these classes does so is VERY different.

Whenever I switch to WHM to play, I have to think about healing in a very different way. As SCH, I have to constantly think about damage that is incoming that I can/ should be mitigating. (Adlo, virus, E4E before big damage) I have to manage my CDs to ensure that I have my mitigation up at the right times. Pet management is also a HUGE aspect of playing SCH at end game. The best SCHs control EVERY SINGLE ACTION that their fairies do. Further more, I can spam heals almost endlessly and never have to worry about MP/ aggro.

WHM spend most of their time REACTING to damage that has already been dealt. Their most effective damage mitigation skill is Stoneskin and it has a long cast time and eats up a TON of MP. Instead of managing CDs like SCHs do, WHMs have aggro and MP management. WHMs, without really trying hard, can rip aggro off a tank if they're not careful. The cost of being able to patch up AoE damage is that these skills use up a lot of MP. Most of the time in dungeons, it's the WHMs crying for Mage's ballad.

TL;DR: To equate the play styles of WHM and SCH is EXTREMELY foolish. It shows how little you know of actually playing the classes. If you spend 5 minutes just comparing the skill sets of each class side by side, you'd quickly realize that there's nothing alike between them.

[Sapphic]

Yes I already know they have these qualities and I suppose mentioning them in the OP would have been a good idea but I saw little point in it at the time.

However, you've simply proven my point further. The facts you've pointed out are merely core mechanics to their class and I'd be shocked and appalled if these weren't included to begin with. Beyond these core mechanics though, what does each class have to offer?

What skill or passive ability makes the Black Mage shine when accompanied by the Summoner?

Their ability to quickly burst adds or to push phases due to burst

What skill makes the Monk stand out from the Bard or the Dragoon in the party?

Their high constant damage, Mantra which assists the healers recovering from high damage on the party, DRGs high physical resistance to grab adds and burst them down, BRDs ability to replenish TP, MP and buff caster damage

What skill does the white Mage have that makes it stand out next to the Scholar in an 8man party?

All of the AE heals, medica, medica II, cure 3. SCHs shields which reduce spike damage on tanks by a huge amount, or reduces incoming damage on the party. Try doing turn 9 with 2x WHM or 2x SCH.

Having trouble coming up with an answer?

That's my point.

That was just a quick response, so no, not having any trouble.

So what's your point?

No, you can't accurately compare and say you have "mastered" classes at level 30, due their uniqueness coming, not from the class abilities, but from their Job abilities.

[melflomil]

Bards: Ranged damage dealers that uses TP instead of MP, great support abilities, amazing burst, not penalized by movement whatsoever.

Bard don't auto attack if they move around. So they are penalized slightly.