Urgently Change your Approach SE

[Exstal]

You can know the cost of something and still ask for it. Certainly not knowing what you're asking for makes a harder argument on why you think it should be done- but their comment doesn't exclude asking. And it is not safe for them to assume that everyone here is ignorant, nor you.. Most of us have jobs in order to pay for the game, you'll never know what profession and hobbies you've ran into until you've asked.

That's just it though, many people don't know the difficulty. Which is why they are frustrated when it isn't how they want it. Those who do know, and there's probably many, know why some things are unfeasible while some are down right ludicrous. Then there are things we probably couldn't have known (like how instance housing wouldn't have been able to be saved) outside the scope of what is possible.

Although I'm not quite sure which part Tiggy is referring to people not knowing what they are asking- this thread is pretty encompassing so.. a lot of stuff sitting on the table lol.

There are many things that could work, then some things that are multitude of work just to get done for a minor upgrade or the like. It won't stop people from asking, or even coming up with some cool suggestions but I don't believe that all the people should believe their suggestion is easy. Usually because it isn't easy. Might even be down right impossible without massive uprooting and I'm sure SE doesn't want to do that a second time.

[Shougun]

I believe he meant they don't know what it takes development wise.

Yeah I got that, but I meant on what particularly - people could have an idea and it isn't safe to assume they don't. "Well clearly you don't because what you want costs a lot" "I know it does, I still am asking for it because this feels substandard" may be a legitimate back and forth between two knowledgeable people.

[Tiggy]

people could have an idea and it isn't safe to assume they don't..

Sure, some of us may understand programming and may understand that it takes time to implement features from a theoretical level, but we programmers have no possible way of knowing how that effects this specific application since not one of us has any domain knowledge for FFXIV's servers or engine. I believe it's quite safe to assume no one has that knowledge in this player base outside of the few devs that play, and they most certainly won't be the ones posting here. Just because something may seem like a small tweak on the outside does not mean for one second that the underlying system could possibly handle that "tweak" without a serious overhaul.

Being a programmer myself it makes me know one thing for sure. I know that I know nothing about this game's architecture. I can theorize possible ways systems may work on the back end, but it likely won't be the way it actually works.

I honestly can't tell you how often I've seen this happen where I work now and at past jobs. It's never as simple as you think it will be. Suggest ideas, changes, tweaks, new features to your hearts content, but I see no reason we can't be a bit more respectful about it.

[Shougun]

Sure, some of us may understand programming and may understand that it takes time to implement features from a theoretical level, but we programmers have no possible way of knowing how that effects this specific application since not one of us has any domain knowledge for FFXIV's servers or engine. I believe it's quite safe to assume no one has that knowledge in this player base outside of the few devs that play, and they most certainly won't be the ones posting here. Just because something may seem like a small tweak on the outside does not mean for one second that the underlying system could possibly handle that "tweak" without a serious overhaul.

Being a programmer myself it makes me know one thing for sure. I know that I know nothing about this game's architecture. I can theorize possible ways systems may work on the back end, but it likely won't be the way it actually works.

I honestly can't tell you how often I've seen this happen where I work now and at past jobs. It's never as simple as you think it will be. Suggest ideas, changes, tweaks, new features to your hearts content, but I see no reason we can't be a bit more respectful about it.

Oh yeah, it is hard to tell how much something would take - in both directions (not as often for larger ideas, but sometimes you've got the prerequisites just sitting around already lol). However, if the simplest change is "too much" then they should just shut the forums down and tell us to gtfriendlyo, I'm not saying you said this exactly - but I think that starting from "you have no clue john snow, please stahp" is a very slippery slope to "you cant suggest that because, because". I know that my request of instanced housing is not going to happen over night and you can find me saying this multiple times in other threads, I've even said "I hope players have patience to see a better system if the devs admit to a fault" and I said something very similar before housing came out because I suspected this housing issue would have happened (issue -> imo, lol).

In respect to another comment about people not voicing their opinions early enough and getting pissed too late, I've been asking for instanced housing before beta (2.0), through beta, and now. I just don't see the cons being worth the pros to make it any other way, the community aspect is pretty void when it is individual players - it does work a bit for FC housing though (lots of players, high chance that at least one person in that FC is on and near). And for me the pros of an instanced system as demonstrated by systems like Wild Stars are just too awesome to not "want". If they said "alright alright, Shougun just because you wanted it (LOL!) we will make instanced housing but it wont be out till 3.0" I would honestly say "<3 you YoshiP, please be sure you compete well with other MMOs, I'm very excited!".

I'm not in a hurry but I do except high quality. The housing system and the chocobo training systems are alright, as I said on the first page of this thread I'm not dying but I would not put "housing" or "chocobo" on a list why someone should come play FFXIV because other MMOs I've played have done it much better, and I expect the development team to be aware of other games and try to learn and top those other games. I'm a little concerned that the housing incident is indicative of Yoshida's mind overall but I have a stronger feeling that they are working really hard to make another "2.0" feeling in 3.0 - since they've said in interviews that 3.0 will be about the size of 2.0, that's pretty damn big lol. That and they said it would be coming sooner than we expected . . .(soon™?), so again my guess is they are working hard to pull another 2.0 feeling.

I'm patient, but I'm not satisfied with mediocre content, and I realize that is a perspective, I'm not going to argue if someone else thinks its great so long as they know their's is a perspective too. I suppose I had a bias for a much higher expectation then they wanted to deliver, thus lower than what I expected.. If I'm alone then Yoshida can safely ignore me, if I'm not and other people wanted a system that had no availability issues and more powerful designing capabilities.. then I suppose Yoshida might put it on his brainstorm list.

As for saying rude things to the devs I rely on the moderators to make the right choice. I mean if we got so sensitive that someone saying "I don't think this content is very fun, and I see a bunch of serious flaws that make no sense to me, what are you guys thinking "insert dev here" got you banned then we would absolutely have the chilling effect on these forums. Might as well start nailing in the coffin that the devs don't care or listen, people would lose faith in such actions. The moderators on this forum seem to be very open to dialog though, I won't mention the topic cause its a hot one but I liked how hard they tried to keep the hot topics going and not just "ha, locked".

I definitely agree there is no reason to be rude "are you an idiot "blah"? you've made the worst decision in the record of development, you should be fired, I hope you never get hired again - you will be in the books for what not to do -swear- -swear- -swear-", if I was a moderator I would have a strong feeling to take some sort of action.

+1 for having friendly discussion in depth, and I mostly agree - just as I touched upon at the top, I think it can turn into a scapegoat so I'm not as much a fan of "know your stuff or don't talk" vs "some stupid stuff might be said, but at least we talked".

[Enesuia]

Not to be rude or disrespectful. Though, Yoshi was only good with Dragon Quest. Don't know what was SE thinking of bringing in someone who completely keeps saying that "He" doesn't want FFXIV to have certain "Traditional FF" mechanics or methods. Pretty much by saying that, he doesn't want this game to be like the traditional FF series. I'm a fanatic; I'll say this once. I'm only playing FFXIV cause I love the FF series. I did not like the Lightning series, felt too-- copy pasta from FFVII and not really a unique character base. As for FFXIV. The story developers are doing a fine job-- though I do notice a web if random directed stories from side stories and scenario.

I've notice Excalibur losing players lately, either
A. They stop playing went off to another game, that's been released and obtain a huge hype.
B. The new content is pushing players away from other content-- such as hunts from the new system "light gatherering". Did anyone notice that "Fates" are kind of dead? Think we all have, hence I notice a lot of bugs, and have been reporting them lately-- though see no hot-fixes for them yet.

Also the personal housing system, I knew that it wasn't going to be cheap. Did not expect it to be the ones in wards! I was expecting it to be a housing connected to your grand company only, in replacement of your Inn. Though, whoa... We got Inn, FC Housing, Private Housing & Private Chambers. They could just remove the private housing anyways, it's really useless the way they made it. I've seen a lot of solo players buying the houses and inside their house is 100% completely-- well.. empty. A solo player does not need a Medium or large house. lol Small housing in general is enough.

Also, Party Finder is broken. Many people want expected clears, experienced, etc. Griefing players from learning, progressing, etc-- for elites or rude players who lack patience or self restrain from being a total tool and kicking the player out of the party or quitting. I've done this myself, from influence-- sadly. Though quit that influence or a behavior and lead a Turn 7 coil party on my own to victory by doing every call and mechanic announcement to help us win. One of the players was fustrated with me-- assuming that I was pointing fingers and acting like an elites when clearly was criticizing the player and telling her how it is easier to do it in a specific way. Can not learn if you can not accept criticism. That player, later on-- apologized. I didn't care, finally got my item healer robe with a pug. I have been joining pick up groups since 2.0 and avoiding static players who have a very nasty, sour personal. I've have progressed slowly-- though noticing these players who don't end up doing their random routine times with their static or fc, end up in Party finder, and grief players from progressing at times. Even a simple party finder takes hours to form! and seconds to break down. It's depressing.

I have been thinking of quitting, though I love FF. As well endure, as I have in 1.0. I just want to enjoy my favorite saga with actual friends.

This is just my input, my 2 cents. As well as feedback. Was wanting to make a thread, though-- this thread is acceptable enough.

Also, pretty upset that Eternal Bonding was pushed back to possibly 2.45... whats so hard about a simple system?......

[Marxam]

I feel as if SE is using FFXIV as a cash cow and milking it for all its worth. SE has a lot of IP's and as such allocates resources from one thing to another, my guess being FFXV and KHIII. This game shouldn't be suffering as bad as it should in today's gaming markets and baffles me with how much infrastructure issues it has. You would think that with a monthly sub they could at least afford to fix the server lag.

When SE stopped being a game studio/developer and started becoming a corporate conglomerate that franchises anything and everything is becoming more and more of a reality.

[Enesuia]

I feel as if SE is using FFXIV as a cash cow and milking it for all its worth. SE has a lot of IP's and as such allocates resources from one thing to another, my guess being FFXV and KHIII. This game shouldn't be suffering as bad as it should in today's gaming markets and baffles me with how much infrastructure issues it has. You would think that with a monthly sub they could at least afford to fix the server lag.

When SE stopped being a game studio/developer and started becoming a corporate conglomerate that franchises anything and everything is becoming more and more of a reality.

It has to be suffering as it did lose a lot of money income from 1.0. Too many freebies. Some said that FFXIV feels nothing but an advertisement for all the other FF series. I can kind of see it, if they will add future races besides the new one that's being talked lol. Though, do not want that to be a factor. I see it more as it being Final Fantasy, saga. How it's supposed to be for us fanatics. lol

[Massterchef]

Especially consider the tone of many responses here. So disrespectful.

[Mjollnir]

Sure, some of us may understand programming and may understand that it takes time to implement features from a theoretical level, but we programmers have no possible way of knowing how that effects this specific application since not one of us has any domain knowledge for FFXIV's servers or engine. I believe it's quite safe to assume no one has that knowledge in this player base outside of the few devs that play, and they most certainly won't be the ones posting here. Just because something may seem like a small tweak on the outside does not mean for one second that the underlying system could possibly handle that "tweak" without a serious overhaul.

Granted, outside of S-E it's unlikely that anyone knows the programming impact of a given request, but what we do see is lots of other MMOs delivering similar functionality and content with ease (instanced housing is a prime example of this). When the response we get is 'server limitations, no changes planned', people are bound to be annoyed as they a) pay their subscription (unlike a lot of those games) and b) want FFXIV to be the leader of the field.

[DenariusJay]

At this point, I have very terrible expectations of how Gold Saucer will turn out to be.

Me too. I'm 100%, positively, without a doubt in my mind, convinced that anything remotely cool to come out of gold saucer will require an insane gil-sink and be an absolute pain in the ass grind to obtain. This way, when it is released, I won't be shocked or surprised to see the millions of gil to spend or the hours of numbing grind to invest to get, like a new dye... The devs have simply failed to do anything else. Time and time again they have shown us this is all they know - giant gil sinks, big grind - small reward. This is the future of the game, its a shite one but oh well, as long as we continue to give them money, why would they change it...