2.0 content progression vs 2.1+

[Fornix]

When FFXIV 2.0 first came out, and everyone was still either leveling up or just started gearing up their 50 job, the dungeons was pretty enjoyable IMO. The gear that dropped there was actually usable at first, while you geared up with Darklight gear, and slowly with Myth gear (before myth cap increase). The dungeons was easy ofc, but you couldn't eat and listen to music at the same time (I couldn't at least)... I quite enjoyed to do that easy, but not too easy task to get my gear.

I liked how in 2.0, you actually had to get some decent gear before you could do dungeons like AK, and even when you could do it, you would still not go through it using 1 hand... You also had to do those dungeons to gear up before you gradually defeated the primals, and then could go on to do Coil (well the majority of players had to gear up quite a bit).

Why did SE change this after that? Ever since those first dungeons in 2.0, all the new ones have either been for the same ilvl, or just recently a little higher... Take the upcoming 2.4 for example, while we don't know the ilvl requirement of them yet, I'll bet it's way lower than most players current ilvl.

SE didn't really change it after that. Fact is still, if you want to progress through the current newest dungeons, you're not going to be able to do that without first gearing up in one way or another.

The "problem" is that players tend to choose the quickest and easiest way to gear up. So rather than sticking to dungeons, if that's ultimately what they've got the most interest in, they'd do ST anyway. And subsequently say that the content turned easy.

Asides from that obvious point, do not even think for a second that increasing required iLvL on something like shiva or final coil is going to make anything more fun or last longer for the casual player. As the only thing it'd do is make this level of content get even more out of reach. As it stands right now for many casuals T5 is too big of a hassle to get through. Even when heavily outgearing it, having the echo buff on, and having tactics readily available to them on just a few clicks away. Even if you end up carrying them through T5, they'd once again end up stuck on T6.

Having those people, once they finally get through T9, then be faced by a grind for higher iLvL before they can stand a chance in T10 again is most probably going to have the opposite effect of fun as you describe.



Whereas for hardcore players who like to raid, being forced to do dungeons in between for a meaningless gear grind is something which I personally would have no interest in. If they'd want to lengthen time to completion of a patch, I'd say rather stick the development effort into creating a boss or 2 extra for a raid. I'm missing 7 - 12 boss encounters in this game anyway. The current 4 boss raids are very short. The overall number of endgame raids in this game is also very minimal.

Rather than needlessly fluffing up raiding progression with timesinks outside of actual raiding, I'd much rather see raiding content progression come out of actual raiding content.

[Craiger]

SE didn't really change it after that. Fact is still, if you want to progress through the current newest dungeons, you're not going to be able to do that without first gearing up in one way or another.

The "problem" is that players tend to choose the quickest and easiest way to gear up. So rather than sticking to dungeons, if that's ultimately what they've got the most interest in, they'd do ST anyway. And subsequently say that the content turned easy.

Asides from that obvious point, do not even think for a second that increasing required iLvL on something like shiva or final coil is going to make anything more fun or last longer for the casual player. As the only thing it'd do is make this level of content get even more out of reach. As it stands right now for many casuals T5 is too big of a hassle to get through. Even when heavily outgearing it, having the echo buff on, and having tactics readily available to them on just a few clicks away. Even if you end up carrying them through T5, they'd once again end up stuck on T6.

Having those people, once they finally get through T9, then be faced by a grind for higher iLvL before they can stand a chance in T10 again is most probably going to have the opposite effect of fun as you describe.



Whereas for hardcore players who like to raid, being forced to do dungeons in between for a meaningless gear grind is something which I personally would have no interest in. If they'd want to lengthen time to completion of a patch, I'd say rather stick the development effort into creating a boss or 2 extra for a raid. I'm missing 7 - 12 boss encounters in this game anyway. The current 4 boss raids are very short. The overall number of endgame raids in this game is also very minimal.

Rather than needlessly fluffing up raiding progression with timesinks outside of actual raiding, I'd much rather see raiding content progression come out of actual raiding content.

You're wrong...

Even a new lvl 50 player could just do some hunts and get full ilvl 90 in no time at all, then all the dungeons in the game is easy... And anyway, I didn't mean for new level 50's. People who have played for a longer time, all already have pretty much every job at 50, or they have chosen to not level up more jobs... For the majority of players, dungeons is a joke. Even the most casual players can faceroll them.

That level of difficulty shouldn't just be for the first month or two of the game, it should carry on through every patch.

I don't understand what you mean by the casuals being farther away from the content? You can get full ilvl110 through just doing ST, and you can't honestly suggest that's too hard for casuals? Getting full ilvl110 armor is gonna be a walk in the park when 2.4 comes out, just like getting Myth gear have been when new armor was introduced. With full ilvl110, you of course could do the new dungeons, but they would be a formidable challenge for the casuals, average for in-between players and easy for hardcore players(not a faceroll though)

Casuals would be able to get to the new content quickly enough, and they would be able to enjoy that easier content a lot more, because it will be a fair bit of challenge for them at first, but it would be the right amount of challenge, so that they still enjoy it a lot. They could then beat 2nd Coil at their own pace, just like they have done 1st Coil

What's that BS about hardcore players? I never heard hardcore players complaining about going through that in 2.0... In fact, the most hardcore players I know, all agree with me on this... Hardcore players would be able to kill Shiva and start Coil much quicker than the average player anyhow, just like it was in 2.0...

[Fornix]

You're wrong...

I'm wrong? I said: "The "problem" is that players tend to choose the quickest and easiest way to gear up."

And then you just come with a way players choose the quickest way to gear up:

Even a new lvl 50 player could just do some hunts and get full ilvl 90 in no time at all, then all the dungeons in the game is easy...

So are you just nitpicking here on the fact that I didn't give an extensive list on alternative sources for quick and easy gear farming?

And anyway, I didn't mean for new level 50's. People who have played for a longer time, all already have pretty much every job at 50, or they have chosen to not level up more jobs... For the majority of players, dungeons is a joke. Even the most casual players can faceroll them.

For the majority of players dungeons are a joke as they don't come with match making. If 3/4 players heavily outgear the dungeon, obviously it's going to be a breeze for the 4th as well. But that's a problem for which changing gear requirements isn't per sé the best solution. Match making based on iLvL and prior dungeon experience would make more sense. It'd be a method which'd also directly kill multiple birds with one stone.

That level of difficulty shouldn't just be for the first month or two of the game, it should carry on through every patch.

And it does, as already said though the problem is that players are taking easy routes to obtaining raiding gear and then facing dungeons with that equipped. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from putting on iLvL 70 gear as a premade and stepping into some of these very same dungeons.

I don't understand what you mean by the casuals being farther away from the content? You can get full ilvl110 through just doing ST, and you can't honestly suggest that's too hard for casuals? Getting full ilvl110 armor is gonna be a walk in the park when 2.4 comes out, just like getting Myth gear have been when new armor was introduced.

You mentioned new coil and shiva. We're talking about many casuals here which with iLvL 100+ are unable to beat Twintania. Content which could be beaten at iLvL 80. Which probably won't be able to beat T9 till they have iLvL 140. If T10-Txx would be aimed at at least iLvL 120 rather than roughly iLvL 100 ~ 105 then those casuals are going to end up having to wait till well in the expansion till they stand a chance at the third coil.

What's that BS about hardcore players? I never heard hardcore players complaining about going through that in 2.0... In fact, the most hardcore players I know, all agree with me on this... Hardcore players would be able to kill Shiva and start Coil much quicker than the average player anyhow, just like it was in 2.0...

It was nothing than a meaningless gear grind back in 2.0 as well. Heck, the frustration to many was so great that they'd bug people to leave if they thought the run wasn't going to be able to be done fast enough. Many players quite simply didn't want to be there. And many also stopped being there once they could step foot into coil.

[Craiger]

I'm wrong? I said: "The "problem" is that players tend to choose the quickest and easiest way to gear up."

And then you just come with a way players choose the quickest way to gear up:



So are you just nitpicking here on the fact that I didn't give an extensive list on alternative sources for quick and easy gear farming?



For the majority of players dungeons are a joke as they don't come with match making. If 3/4 players heavily outgear the dungeon, obviously it's going to be a breeze for the 4th as well. But that's a problem for which changing gear requirements isn't per sé the best solution. Match making based on iLvL and prior dungeon experience would make more sense. It'd be a method which'd also directly kill multiple birds with one stone.



And it does, as already said though the problem is that players are taking easy routes to obtaining raiding gear and then facing dungeons with that equipped. Absolutely nothing is stopping you from putting on iLvL 70 gear as a premade and stepping into some of these very same dungeons.



You mentioned new coil and shiva. We're talking about many casuals here which with iLvL 100+ are unable to beat Twintania. Content which could be beaten at iLvL 80. Which probably won't be able to beat T9 till they have iLvL 140. If T10-Txx would be aimed at at least iLvL 120 rather than roughly iLvL 100 ~ 105 then those casuals are going to end up having to wait till well in the expansion till they stand a chance at the third coil.



It was nothing than a meaningless gear grind back in 2.0 as well. Heck, the frustration to many was so great that they'd bug people to leave if they thought the run wasn't going to be able to be done fast enough. Many players quite simply didn't want to be there. And many also stopped being there once they could step foot into coil.

You make some points, but you're still missing my point about the dungeon difficulty... You say the problem is that people get matched with too geared players, but what about players that are already too geared for it themselves

I haven't been playing 2.3 as much as I did before it (been busy), and I've been on a break for a month now, planning to come back some weeks before 2.4.

I'm not a player that enjoys being in a static, or rushing through content like Coil... But with all this considered, I'm still ilvl 105 on my DRG, and that's before you could get Sands in ST.

So for a player like me, who likes to take his time with these new patches, and don't like being in a static, there really isn't much for me to do anymore... (I'm gonna level a Ninja though, so that's something I guess)

My DRG is gonna steamroll all those new dungeons, and it has nothing to do with being matched with better geared players.

Your comment on putting on ilvl 70 is pretty ridiculous too... Maybe that will be enough for some, but I meant that the dungeons should give usable gear that is better or at least as good as my current gear (different stats). I won't intentionally reduce my ilvl, just to make it harder, there gotta be some incentive for me to do it.

I agree that there should be a system that somehow matches low ilvl players with our equally low players though...

About the casual and hardcore part, there has to be something they can do to make it suit both of them...
This game is too much about the very casual players, and the hardcore players, what about us players in-between?

[Fornix]

You make some points, but you're still missing my point about the dungeon difficulty... You say the problem is that people get matched with too geared players, but what about players that are already too geared for it themselves

As already stated, those players outgeared that content themselves. Either to bypass the gear drops of dungeons through farming e.g. hunts, or by playing higher end content and obtaining gear through there. If players who enjoy just dungeons, stick to just dungeons without taking the easy route, this'd be a non-issue. An iLvL 105 for example is not something obtained through just dungeon gear. Even with tokens gathered throughout the weeks, iLvL 105 is not what will be obtained.

That's not a problem, that's how games work. A player will always find the most efficient way in beating the game, that's what is fun about it. If a game allows the player to easily outgear the biggest part of the game thus making it easy that is the game's fault not the player's fault.

It's not the game's fault the players are taking on raiding gear to complain about the ease of dungeons. And even though they either keep on failing on raiding content or don't even try, to then still state the endgame content would be too easy. Even with the duration of SCoB having been available, the fraction of players who've cleared it is minimal. Ramuh Ex, same story. The number of players who've even managed to down T6 is relatively minimal. Many PUGs still wipe on T5. Endgame in this game is challenging enough as is.

Heck, even ST and CT are challenging to many players. It's only for the fact that a lot of endgame players still farm ST which makes it easy, the carry rate is high. Step into CT these days and be in for a wipe-fest session.

[Craiger]

As already stated, those players outgeared that content themselves. Either to bypass the gear drops of dungeons through farming e.g. hunts, or by playing higher end content and obtaining gear through there. If players who enjoy just dungeons, stick to just dungeons without taking the easy route, this'd be a non-issue. An iLvL 105 for example is not something obtained through just dungeon gear. Even with tokens gathered throughout the weeks, iLvL 105 is not what will be obtained.



It's not the game's fault the players are taking on raiding gear to complain about the ease of dungeons. And even though they either keep on failing on raiding content or don't even try, to then still state the endgame content would be too easy. Even with the duration of SCoB having been available, the fraction of players who've cleared it is minimal. Ramuh Ex, same story. The number of players who've even managed to down T6 is relatively minimal. Many PUGs still wipe on T5. Endgame in this game is challenging enough as is.

Heck, even ST and CT are challenging to many players. It's only for the fact that a lot of endgame players still farm ST which makes it easy, the carry rate is high. Step into CT these days and be in for a wipe-fest session.

Wait what?!

Are you seriously saying that the game should be split in 2, 1 part for raiders and 1 part for "only dungeon players"? What game do you think this? Should I just do dungeons and only use dungeon gear, and then wait for the next patch to get dungeon gear there? I would have to ignore the tomes I get, cause I would still be steamrolling the dungeons if I get gear from that... and I wouldn't be able to do the primals, hunts or Relic quest, cause that would make me steamroll it. Effectively I would be playing a small percentage of the game.

Do you take me for some super casual, who can only play 1-2 hours a week or something?

If you only come in and do your weekly raid each week, why are you playing the game in the first place? It's only once per week... There are a ton of other content to do in the game too, and that content should be fun to do even if you have good enough gear to do raids. Since you have good enough gear for raids as soon as the patch releases, do you just leave the dungeons and all other content behind, and just do the weekly raid? That sounds like exactly the thing that made hardcore players leave in 2.0...

EDIT: Also, ST is hard? Are you looking down on players like me? It's not easy cause I have highly geared players carrying me, it's easy cause the mechanics of the fight is really really easy... Just because I don't like being in a static and being first to down the raids, doesn't mean I couldn't do it if I wanted...

[Edli]

And it does, as already said though the problem is that players are taking easy routes to obtaining raiding gear and then facing dungeons with that equipped.

That's not a problem, that's how games work. A player will always find the most efficient way in beating the game, that's what is fun about it. If a game allows the player to easily outgear the biggest part of the game thus making it easy that is the game's fault not the player's fault.

What would you want for players to do, making it difficult artificially? I tried with these new dungeons for some strange reason. Decided to run the new dungeons with my undergeared BLM and equip him eventually with the gear they drop. 2 weeks later I only had a belt and a crapload of crafting mats. Meanwhile I was drowning in myth and didn't know where to spend them. Eventually I realized that that was freaking stupid.

The way these new dungeons were implemented on the last patch was just ridiculous. They make no sense whatsoever. They're made for a playerbase that doesn't really exist.