Goodbye cleric stance.. you will be sorely missed

[Gor]

No. I didn't reply to u because I'm tired of repeating myself. On top of this forum is like a lynch mob. saying anything in this forum is like shouting at a brick wall with "I'm right" painted on it. No matter what anyone says, even if it has been repeated several times, its not going to change Anyone's mind no matter how much sense, or no sense, it makes. And frankly I'm tired of repeating myself, but for the sake of argument PLDs can do a substantial amount of damage in sword oath, my friend consistantly does awhere around 40 to 90k as a paladin so its de finitelydable if u knknow how to maximize ur class. But u won't see SEttaking away sword oath now will we?
In addition to that, healers also do 20% less healing when in Cleric so its not like its god mode. Just grab a dips friend, turn around, stun it and killl it.

[Domira]

That isn't tanking, that's crowd control. What you are doing is attempting to redefine what tanking is in order to prove yourself right. Tanking has never been about locking down foes with ccs and stuns. If that's true then I guess rogue in wow by that definition is a tank since they stunlock targets. To go further, a role's definition does not change depending upon the game mode.

Perhaps this would broaden your perspective of what it means to be a tank, since the role does not change in any game:

A tank is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, Fighting Games and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, healing by other party members, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_(gaming)

[Shake0615]

snip

Though I stand by my point, my I'm not going to argue it anymore which is why I deleted it.

[Zyphione]

Healing is DPS also, in this game, do never forget it, It's not the same just give heals and it's not the same just DPS, for some people WE NEED to do both things, and if we can in PvE, and could in PvP, while removing that now in such a lazy way?

I have faith in Square Enix team, it is not the first time they retract from their errors and change something back. And I honestly hope this is going to be the case of cleric stance. It is like if they'd kill a special duo-role that not everyone (Even if wanting) can do it. It was a supreme fun and art to maintain everyone alive at the time you do damage, and that's not being a DPS hidden among healers, it is a true healer. Being just someone who gives heals is boring, it lacks of the emotion of having to balance something that healing in this game offers. They killed that emotion, that virtue, that gaming style...

A nerf? Okay, maybe, people whines so, they'll do it... But... Killing Cleric Stance wasn't the right decision, because you kill a whole gaming style with it.

Let's put an easy example, but not accurate at all of how important Cleric Stance is for a true healer. It is so important as Greased Lightning could be to a monk, an ability you need to maintain well, have your own strategies and clear reflexes to dodge but still having it, risk to the last moment sometimes for the sake of holding it... All those things, that emotion that gives you having to maintain the Greased Lightining is somehow similar to Cleric Stance with healers, and of course, this makes a brutal difference of DPS between bad monks and good monks. (As well as correct positioning...) A plain normal boring healer that only heals is equal to a plain boring monk that only hits in the same place all time because, geez, moving too much is annoying.

This nerf goes against the personalization of your gaming style, directly killing it and transforming you in just another healer that only heals, the more personalization, especially here (It lacks a bit of it) you can obtain in your gaming, the better, and cutting the abilities that require some skill and practice to use are cruel crimes.

Being a nooby all-arounder I love all classes, but for example, one thing that made me have healers among the rest in order of priority, and my monk just after these ones, are the brutal differences of gaming styles with them, especially in healer's case because no rotations at all, you have to know and select wise what to use and in what moment. Now in PvP it will be that easy as just... Don't become crazy thinking so much, go brainless spam heal and it's fine.

Oh, and remember something important, please. A healer CAN'T BE 100% of the time with cleric stance dealing damage. (And if they can because they are in a 8-healer party. Then what's the problem? they are just a DPS, not a healer). While a DPS is dealing damage 100% of the time... Is the damage output so really butthurt? Can healers who are not all the time DPSing really deal more damage than a class who is all time dealing damage? ... If yes, then lower the damage power of the skills (Not kill cleric stance) If not... Then why are you whining about it?

Kind regards.

I am not going to hide your post in order to reply and for easier reference, I apologize for space. This is very misinforming? It is even different from what Gor and many others say? I can not agree with this.

SCH and WHM have strong healing is obvious? Stance gives them strong damage is obvious? Where is middle ground for DPS player like you mention in first sentence? DPS player at most have monk heal second wind in English? Even black mage only have borrowed SCH heal for 300 hp? How is DPS player comparing to Healer in game?

Yes you do both heal and dps but not to ridiculous values? Healer is only class who can do both to ridiculous value. Have you think on why all DPS class have no super skill that reduce their damage 40% but turn all attacks into 200% self healing skills? Have you think on why when 2 SCH or 2 WHM see each other, no point to fight because neither will be defeated?

That is because damage is very good but healing is even better, I have many times made other SCH 20% but he fully heal in 2 skills with fairy help. I do the same to him and instead we sit down at the neutral flag point until whoever team come first. No point to fight and flag not taken by anyone so we can throw firework and open realm reborn red until need to be serious again.

The only "virtue" of game style is style to be unbeatable by anyone similar to NA term of 'Juggernaut' where many can kill but individually or even 2 people have big problem killing. Copycat class to survive and run away if meet the same class since: fighting is pointless due to both can heal and dps good.

If many attack you and you defeated? That is not even argument, agree?

Anyone will be defeated by many people and Healer biggest problem is that this is not holding true since they can survive 2 people and even 3? Then you want high DPS too? What if I suggest give stance back but introduce new stance for all DPS class for sake of fairness?
New DPS stance will turn all DPS attack into 100% healing instead of damage, so DPS do no damage in this stance but instead all are healing double what damage they do? (Cast 2100 fire on target but instead target take 0 damage and you gain 4200HP)?

Is this fair? Very fair because Healer sacrifice healing you say, dps sacrifice damage.
Then no point playing game since no one can kill as all class can DPS until low HP then super heal to full and stance off to DPS more and heal more if HP low.

How can you compare MNK to SCH?
Lightning mechanic is defining factor of MNK class? This way you also saying Fire Power/Ice Power for Black Mage is same as Stance? We look at remove them then since you say they can be compared. MNK with no Lightning useless. Mage with no Element power useless. Healer with no Stance still can perform job well? Your main job never to DPS, only to heal. DPS is luxury given to you and luxury many abuse.
Reason? Stance is reason.

You essentially say you play healer to want to DPS and Heal good if not class is boring then you compare to say class like monk who don't move. How is moving and position requirement same as the strong ability to do good damage and healing?
Very flawed example in hope to prove points. Just because you can say things to compare does not mean its logical to compare? Am I right to say this?

Your last few paragraph say Healer not in stance 100% time? Then take my example of DPS having stance and heal to full. They also must drop stance eventually but fact remains you no longer need to play game since all player not able to die if "played well" and "have good rotation of stance". 2 quote words that overemphasize gameplay that is nothing outside of press 1 button and know when in danger for CD end to press it again.

No one is really whine about it? All this thread is are people who enjoy being God of PvP for long time and Master of All Traits? Then tell you DPS class do more damage so they have right to be Master of Everything either way. Not realize that average DPS player never have 200k heal and 100k damage and values always see-saw into 200k damage 30k heal or landslide factor to damage side.

Healer can not claim same thing since they always balance scale and only tip to healing side a little more.
They do not even need try hard to do this.

Nobody has strong point in here to keeping it in PvP? Dev will not retract action is this is so.

[Sen_Terrechant]

"Look at me, I have nothing to answer to what he just said, so I'll just post a random sentence to show that I'm still here for no reason."

Is that all what salty healers have to say, really?
Well, winning that argument was so easy it didn't taste good at all. I guess I won't have anything interesting to read from you.

So you are a baddie that never uses Tetsudo? Cover? Silence? Yup your definitely not a support when your a PLD.

[Namasu]

Guys, enough bickering. Just look at it like this:

Non-healers know that healers should be nerfed.
Healers know that they should be nerfed.

NO ONE disagree that healers should be nerfed.

Here's the actual problems:
8 stacking healers is usually the problem. Fine, do a diminishing return on how much regen/medica/heal you can receive at a given time.
Whm/Sch CAN solo dps/tanks of lower skill level and SOMETIMES solo people equal skill level if there is an ADVANTAGE in available cooldowns.

How did we healers AND non-healers to do the nerf?
We wanted diminishing return on healing so that stacking healer is non-viable. NOT removing cleric stance completely.
Removing cleric stance does not break the 8 healer stack advantage. 8 scholars can cycle knockback on any cap and own it in second. 8 whm can still deliver burst holy spam + 8 medica II + fluid aura for invincible mode to turtle a cap.
Yes cleric stance do give whm/sch an edge with dps but to nerf it, a 10~20% reduction is more than enough but removing cleric stance completely is probably like over 50% nerf.

This is my last post for the thread. It doesn't matter which side is right or wrong anymore (since that's what most of you guys are so keen on discussing). The real problem is the devs are so hasty with throwing a crippling nerf without acknowledging that they are further dumbing the game down and kill interests of hardcore pvp-ers. This forum has already lost all hope since people can't overcome their difference in opinions (and resorting to childish remark like calling people whiny and salty despite having a legitimate argument) and unite against the principle that SE delivered the WRONG nerf.

At the end of the day healers will still heal. Some will quit PVP for sure over this and that will directly affect your queue time and quality of your game. So enjoy calling healers whiny and salty and see the effect a couple months from now.
Please look forward to the next nerf.

[Sen_Terrechant]

Snip

Actually, i disagree. Like ive said i dont believe in catering to the WORST players. Healers were never an issue for actually good, organized players.

So yeah. I have a big issue with that. PvP is already a very niche thing, and SE is balancing around the WORST players that most likely will not continue to PvP anyways.

Also 8 stacking healers was only an issue for morons that like to slam their face against a brick wall repeatedly insted of just GOING AROUND AND CAPPING ANOTHER POINT.


I wonder what the next crusade by the terrible players that occupy these forums will be...

[Fyce]

So you are a baddie that never uses Tetsudo? Cover? Silence? Yup your definitely not a support when your a PLD.

First thing, you should try to hit the right button when trying to quote someone.
Second, fine, I'll correct what I said:

The only thing left for Tanks in PvP is close-range average damage, a few CC and some very situationnal skills with very long cooldowns which can be used as support abilities but will never be on par with a healer support power.

You should be happy now.

[Tridus1x]

how many times have you even seen an 8 healer stacking? i'm betting not much or zero because i've been playing since FL launch up until this week and i've never seen an 8 healer stack so its not a common practice at all on our data center.

Going to have to agree with this 1000%. I have never seen a 8 man healer group in all the Frontline matches I played, and I played quite a bit. I think it's come down to catering to the lesser skilled, it's the only reason. This change was based on people losing 1vs1 matches and instead of rethinking their position to get better, they just want an easy fix.

[Tridus1x]

Hi, I lost to a healer and now I'm butthurt. I will cry for nerfs on anything that seems impossible to overcome. My name is Domira.

So why do BLM/SMN have heal spells if they are meant to just do damage? It's so clear that you are biased because of two reasons:

1. You never played a healer in PVP.
2. You can't accept teamwork as a solution to overcome your own shortcomings.

On another note, if you can't tank, which you often say, then why do you need tank CD's? How come you didn't ask for their removal. You said you play a support role, therefore the only skills you would need are Cover and Shield bash. Rather easy to expose salty people.