An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Benediction]

Exactly lol. Guildleves are focused more to be casual friendly anyway. So if lowering the difficulty until you find the sweet spot isn't meant to add MAJOR challenge. People are forgetting that in order for a MMO to succeed you need Hardcore as well as Casual. Why is WoW so successful? Because Blizzard knew this fact. They released CATA and changed the game around because the HARDCORE player was angry(and started leaving) because the content became WAY too easy. Leveling up is the easy part but endgame raids/PvP is what attracts the Hardcore to it. Hardcore players are the foundation while Casuals are what make the structure.

Exactly. Nicely put lol

On a side note, WoW instances are really fun. I like the one at Ulduar where you can pair up with someone and one drives the tank, the other controls the canon. I love using the canon and just spam those fireballs at the mobs :x

[SoraRyuu]

B) Death penalties are a necessity and help to keep a feeling of urgency and suspense within the context of the world itself.

As much as i hated soloing puddings after a dyn on BLM id rather have some negative to dieing atm i just dont care.... whats to rage at if your not losing sp? I would rather have a strong reaction to death and not just /shrug.

[Naqaj]

The main issue is that if there is no risk to dying in the game, then the challenge dies with it, characters are not supposed to throw themselves into unconsciousness at the enemy without some payback.

Everytime there's a discussion about death penalties, this argument is brought up, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. I've played RO and L2, where death could set you back whole days worth of XP, and I also played WoW, where it just cost you some gold.

I tried to avoid death in WoW just as much as in any other game. Not because I feared a penalty, but because it's stupid to die, and noone wants to be defeated by a stupid NPC mob! It's the ultimate embarrassment. I don't need the game to kick me in the nuts with taking XP from me, I'm already pissed because I lost the fight. I'm supposed to be a hero saving the world, and admiting defeat to an enemy is all the penalty I need to make sure I never repeat that mistake.
Any system that takes away XP or gives me a massive debuff that prevents me from trying again doesn't make me more careful. It just makes me more likely to log off and don't care any more.

[Blackheart]

Everytime there's a discussion about death penalties, this argument is brought up, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. I've played RO and L2, where death could set you back whole days worth of XP, and I also played WoW, where it just cost you some gold.

I tried to avoid death in WoW just as much as in any other game. Not because I feared a penalty, but because it's stupid to die, and noone wants to be defeated by a stupid NPC mob! It's the ultimate embarrassment. I don't need the game to kick me in the nuts with taking XP from me, I'm already pissed because I lost the fight. I'm supposed to be a hero saving the world, and admiting defeat to an enemy is all the penalty I need to make sure I never repeat that mistake.
Any system that takes away XP or gives me a massive debuff that prevents me from trying again doesn't make me more careful. It just makes me more likely to log off and don't care any more.

HAHAHAHA!!!!! i'd have to agree with you. At this point i honestly don't think putting in a penalty would be a great idea...well...wait let me take that back, putting the EXP loss penalty would be horrible since we can only get so much anyways. Unless they took that out it would just be a bigger boot to kick us in the teeth

[Kallera]

Everytime there's a discussion about death penalties, this argument is brought up, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. I've played RO and L2, where death could set you back whole days worth of XP, and I also played WoW, where it just cost you some gold.

I tried to avoid death in WoW just as much as in any other game. Not because I feared a penalty, but because it's stupid to die, and noone wants to be defeated by a stupid NPC mob! It's the ultimate embarrassment. I don't need the game to kick me in the nuts with taking XP from me, I'm already pissed because I lost the fight. I'm supposed to be a hero saving the world, and admiting defeat to an enemy is all the penalty I need to make sure I never repeat that mistake.
Any system that takes away XP or gives me a massive debuff that prevents me from trying again doesn't make me more careful. It just makes me more likely to log off and don't care any more.

But you aren't saving the world, either.

Mage Knight Apocalypse had only a button you had to press to revive yourself once you died, and you could immediately continue where you left off on whatever boss you were working on. It was cheap, and screwed with the challenge even on its hardest difficulty. The dev team shouldn't have to count on your embarrassment to losing to a mob. Do you feel the same utter shame with every death? No, how could you? It's the same reason why people remember their first Maat fight, but not their first Three-eyed-Prozpuz. throwing bodies at a problem without a care should not be a solution.

[Benediction]

throwing bodies at a problem without a care should not be a solution.

Actually, if I remember correctly... during the period when Pandemonium Warden was just released and every LS out there in FFXI was trying to figure out how to defeat it. There was this one Linkshell (I forget which exactly), used a "zombie" strategy which is to say... throwing and recycling all the dead/weakened blue mages at the Warden because of that one blue magic which was not affected by weakness (I was reading it on Blue Gartr a few years back).

So no... I don't think they cared at all about dying nor were they ever "scared/in suspension/whatever" bullshit you guys came up with. If people wanted to feel any of those fearful emotions... they'd go watch a scary movie. Because to a hardcore gamer, they don't care about immersion or lore (or at least isn't their first priority)... all they care about is being the best at whatever class they are and having the best armor and weapons they will acquire.

[Chardrizard]

But you aren't saving the world, either.

Mage Knight Apocalypse had only a button you had to press to revive yourself once you died, and you could immediately continue where you left off on whatever boss you were working on. It was cheap, and screwed with the challenge even on its hardest difficulty. The dev team shouldn't have to count on your embarrassment to losing to a mob. Do you feel the same utter shame with every death? No, how could you? It's the same reason why people remember their first Maat fight, but not their first Three-eyed-Prozpuz. throwing bodies at a problem without a care should not be a solution.

seriously? are you even playing the game or read some of the posts.. no you cant continue the fight while weakened bc you are useless while weakened, when you are useless in a fight, it slows down the fight, when you slowed down too much, you will rage the NM or fail the instances or leves.

for emphasis, you cant throw bodies/zombies in this game.

[Kallera]

Actually, if I remember correctly... during the period when Pandemonium Warden was just released and every LS out there in FFXI was trying to figure out how to defeat it. There was this one Linkshell (I forget which exactly), used a "zombie" strategy which is to say... throwing and recycling all the dead/weakened blue mages at the Warden because of that one blue magic which was not affected by weakness (I was reading it on Blue Gartr a few years back).

So no... I don't think they cared at all about dying nor were they ever "scared/in suspension/whatever" bullshit you guys came up with. If people wanted to feel any of those fearful emotions... they'd go watch a scary movie. Because to a hardcore gamer, they don't care about immersion or lore (or at least isn't their first priority)... all they care about is being the best at whatever class they are and having the best armor and weapons they will acquire.

and what did the dev team do after they did that strategy? Force boss fights like Pandemonium into a two hour battle, and the same player certainly didn't have the chance to redo the battle again, it would take another player to get his chance at the Warden. You want best weapons and items +20 and not care about lore, immersion, and strategy? Go play Dynasty Warriors, they have an online game coming out soon. This isn't about fear, its about difficulty, and there are many ways to increase difficulty. If a "Hardcore Gamer" doesn't care about that...well, that's not very "hardcore" then, is it?

[Benediction]

and what did the dev team do after they did that strategy? Force boss fights like Pandemonium into a two hour battle, and the same player certainly didn't have the chance to redo the battle again, it would take another player to get his chance at the Warden. You want best weapons and items +20 and not care about lore, immersion, and strategy? Go play Dynasty Warriors, they have an online game coming out soon. This isn't about fear, its about difficulty, and there are many ways to increase difficulty. If a "Hardcore Gamer" doesn't care about that...well, that's not very "hardcore" then, is it?

Ahem... the point of the post was that those players did not care about nor were they ever scared about dying. I couldn't care less what the dev team did after that because it's irrelevant.

[Naqaj]

But you aren't saving the world, either.

Mage Knight Apocalypse had only a button you had to press to revive yourself once you died, and you could immediately continue where you left off on whatever boss you were working on. It was cheap, and screwed with the challenge even on its hardest difficulty. The dev team shouldn't have to count on your embarrassment to losing to a mob. Do you feel the same utter shame with every death? No, how could you? It's the same reason why people remember their first Maat fight, but not their first Three-eyed-Prozpuz. throwing bodies at a problem without a care should not be a solution.

Boss fights require just a small adjustment. In that case, it is enough of a penalty if death simply removes you from the fight and prevents you from reentering. It means your death weakens your team, which you'll want to avoid at all cost. No additional penalties needed.