An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Naqaj]

The main issue is that if there is no risk to dying in the game, then the challenge dies with it, characters are not supposed to throw themselves into unconsciousness at the enemy without some payback.

Everytime there's a discussion about death penalties, this argument is brought up, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. I've played RO and L2, where death could set you back whole days worth of XP, and I also played WoW, where it just cost you some gold.

I tried to avoid death in WoW just as much as in any other game. Not because I feared a penalty, but because it's stupid to die, and noone wants to be defeated by a stupid NPC mob! It's the ultimate embarrassment. I don't need the game to kick me in the nuts with taking XP from me, I'm already pissed because I lost the fight. I'm supposed to be a hero saving the world, and admiting defeat to an enemy is all the penalty I need to make sure I never repeat that mistake.
Any system that takes away XP or gives me a massive debuff that prevents me from trying again doesn't make me more careful. It just makes me more likely to log off and don't care any more.

[Blackheart]

Everytime there's a discussion about death penalties, this argument is brought up, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. I've played RO and L2, where death could set you back whole days worth of XP, and I also played WoW, where it just cost you some gold.

I tried to avoid death in WoW just as much as in any other game. Not because I feared a penalty, but because it's stupid to die, and noone wants to be defeated by a stupid NPC mob! It's the ultimate embarrassment. I don't need the game to kick me in the nuts with taking XP from me, I'm already pissed because I lost the fight. I'm supposed to be a hero saving the world, and admiting defeat to an enemy is all the penalty I need to make sure I never repeat that mistake.
Any system that takes away XP or gives me a massive debuff that prevents me from trying again doesn't make me more careful. It just makes me more likely to log off and don't care any more.

HAHAHAHA!!!!! i'd have to agree with you. At this point i honestly don't think putting in a penalty would be a great idea...well...wait let me take that back, putting the EXP loss penalty would be horrible since we can only get so much anyways. Unless they took that out it would just be a bigger boot to kick us in the teeth

[Kallera]

Everytime there's a discussion about death penalties, this argument is brought up, and it just doesn't make any sense to me. I've played RO and L2, where death could set you back whole days worth of XP, and I also played WoW, where it just cost you some gold.

I tried to avoid death in WoW just as much as in any other game. Not because I feared a penalty, but because it's stupid to die, and noone wants to be defeated by a stupid NPC mob! It's the ultimate embarrassment. I don't need the game to kick me in the nuts with taking XP from me, I'm already pissed because I lost the fight. I'm supposed to be a hero saving the world, and admiting defeat to an enemy is all the penalty I need to make sure I never repeat that mistake.
Any system that takes away XP or gives me a massive debuff that prevents me from trying again doesn't make me more careful. It just makes me more likely to log off and don't care any more.

But you aren't saving the world, either.

Mage Knight Apocalypse had only a button you had to press to revive yourself once you died, and you could immediately continue where you left off on whatever boss you were working on. It was cheap, and screwed with the challenge even on its hardest difficulty. The dev team shouldn't have to count on your embarrassment to losing to a mob. Do you feel the same utter shame with every death? No, how could you? It's the same reason why people remember their first Maat fight, but not their first Three-eyed-Prozpuz. throwing bodies at a problem without a care should not be a solution.

[Benediction]

throwing bodies at a problem without a care should not be a solution.

Actually, if I remember correctly... during the period when Pandemonium Warden was just released and every LS out there in FFXI was trying to figure out how to defeat it. There was this one Linkshell (I forget which exactly), used a "zombie" strategy which is to say... throwing and recycling all the dead/weakened blue mages at the Warden because of that one blue magic which was not affected by weakness (I was reading it on Blue Gartr a few years back).

So no... I don't think they cared at all about dying nor were they ever "scared/in suspension/whatever" bullshit you guys came up with. If people wanted to feel any of those fearful emotions... they'd go watch a scary movie. Because to a hardcore gamer, they don't care about immersion or lore (or at least isn't their first priority)... all they care about is being the best at whatever class they are and having the best armor and weapons they will acquire.

[Kallera]

Actually, if I remember correctly... during the period when Pandemonium Warden was just released and every LS out there in FFXI was trying to figure out how to defeat it. There was this one Linkshell (I forget which exactly), used a "zombie" strategy which is to say... throwing and recycling all the dead/weakened blue mages at the Warden because of that one blue magic which was not affected by weakness (I was reading it on Blue Gartr a few years back).

So no... I don't think they cared at all about dying nor were they ever "scared/in suspension/whatever" bullshit you guys came up with. If people wanted to feel any of those fearful emotions... they'd go watch a scary movie. Because to a hardcore gamer, they don't care about immersion or lore (or at least isn't their first priority)... all they care about is being the best at whatever class they are and having the best armor and weapons they will acquire.

and what did the dev team do after they did that strategy? Force boss fights like Pandemonium into a two hour battle, and the same player certainly didn't have the chance to redo the battle again, it would take another player to get his chance at the Warden. You want best weapons and items +20 and not care about lore, immersion, and strategy? Go play Dynasty Warriors, they have an online game coming out soon. This isn't about fear, its about difficulty, and there are many ways to increase difficulty. If a "Hardcore Gamer" doesn't care about that...well, that's not very "hardcore" then, is it?

[Benediction]

and what did the dev team do after they did that strategy? Force boss fights like Pandemonium into a two hour battle, and the same player certainly didn't have the chance to redo the battle again, it would take another player to get his chance at the Warden. You want best weapons and items +20 and not care about lore, immersion, and strategy? Go play Dynasty Warriors, they have an online game coming out soon. This isn't about fear, its about difficulty, and there are many ways to increase difficulty. If a "Hardcore Gamer" doesn't care about that...well, that's not very "hardcore" then, is it?

Ahem... the point of the post was that those players did not care about nor were they ever scared about dying. I couldn't care less what the dev team did after that because it's irrelevant.

[Akumu]

and what did the dev team do after they did that strategy? Force boss fights like Pandemonium into a two hour battle, and the same player certainly didn't have the chance to redo the battle again, it would take another player to get his chance at the Warden. You want best weapons and items +20 and not care about lore, immersion, and strategy? Go play Dynasty Warriors, they have an online game coming out soon. This isn't about fear, its about difficulty, and there are many ways to increase difficulty. If a "Hardcore Gamer" doesn't care about that...well, that's not very "hardcore" then, is it?

Lol you guys that agree with this are correct because this does makes things rather DIFFICULT.
It makes it DIFFICULT for the average player to say "I'm gonna try and be a Tank/Healer." Its DIFFICULT to enjoy the game because this jerk disbanded just to watch us die over a grudge. It becomes extremely DIFFICULT once we have a load of DDs because new players are scared to replace the now endgame heals/tanks.

[Kallera]

Lol you guys that agree with this are correct because this does makes things rather DIFFICULT.
It makes it DIFFICULT for the average player to say "I'm gonna try and be a Tank/Healer." Its DIFFICULT to enjoy the game because this jerk disbanded just to watch us die over a grudge. It becomes extremely DIFFICULT once we have a load of DDs because new players are scared to replace the now endgame heals/tanks.

Would you prefer a melting pot of mediocrity, playing whatever they felt like and winning no matter the class they chose? Surely that will appease everyone playing, everyone plays to win after all, they should also allow you to keep the items you failed to synth, and never lose a mining point. Because god forbid the hardcore gamer has ANYTHING at stake in his quest to save the world.

Cause you know, saving the world should never have even the slightest consequence for failure. That would just be too much.

[Akumu]

Would you prefer a melting pot of mediocrity, playing whatever they felt like and winning no matter the class they chose? Surely that will appease everyone playing, everyone plays to win after all, they should also allow you to keep the items you failed to synth, and never lose a mining point. Because god forbid the hardcore gamer has ANYTHING at stake in his quest to save the world.

Cause you know, saving the world should never have even the slightest consequence for failure. That would just be too much.

/sigh... So how is xp loss at stake make sense? If I threw a brick at you and you were knocked out did you lose or gain? I would hope gain since the next time it happens I would hope you would duck....Xp loss can't possibly be the ONLY way to make content challenging or difficult...

[God]

Would you prefer a melting pot of mediocrity, playing whatever they felt like and winning no matter the class they chose? Surely that will appease everyone playing, everyone plays to win after all, they should also allow you to keep the items you failed to synth, and never lose a mining point. Because god forbid the hardcore gamer has ANYTHING at stake in his quest to save the world.

Strawman. None of that is in the game nor is anyone asking for it.

Penalties for death in this game are fine as they are. Gear dmg plus time wasted.