Rogue/Ninja Starting Class?

[MageBlack]

You guys realize that the Yoshi-P and the dev team as well as the lore team, etc, knew that RGE>NIN was going to be the next addition to FFXIV a good while in advance right? Likely since, or even before, 2.0 launch.

Now answer this:

Given that it would incredibly simpler to just stick to the beastmen storyline through 2.2 and when 2.4 comes, simply introduce a new guild for RGE and a new NPC for NIN so that it RGE is available from the beginning of the MSQ, why did SE go to such lengths to introduce Yugiri as a Ninja who "brings new techniques from the far east" and furthermore beef up Thancred backstory all of a sudden with the Fraternity of thieves (rogues, essentially) and make Thancred and Yugiri have a whole moment where they acknowledge the synergy between their movements (suggesting the rogue > nin continuity)?

I suppose that question ended up being rather verbose, but the point should be clear as day.

Especially to anyone who played through to the end of 1.0, we're no stranger to seeing this dev team wrap new additions to the game or changes to mechanics in some form of lore - even somewhat trivial/cosmetic systems such as glamours or aesthetician. They get rich representation.

Why would they go through all the trouble to lay the foundation for the coming new class and job in the storyline continuity, so that it can be experienced in a rather "LIVE" way (which, btw, is one of the 3 key words that Yoshi-P used to express the design philosophy they will have when redesigning FFXIV back from 1.0), if in the end what they plan to do is introduce some random "secret Ninja that came long before Yugiri" and outright break the storyline sequence where Thancred sees Yugiri fight and reverts to his old techniques (because if he's been seeing you use those techniques all along, that entire cutscene makes zero sense), why go through all he trouble?

Most of your points are addressed on the previous page of the comments section alone as well as deeper in the thread. Please take a quick look over the previous page for a few variations on questions and answers like the one you presented.

[NoctisUmbra]

Most of your points are addressed on the previous page of the comments section alone as well as deeper in the thread. Please take a quick look over the previous page for a few variations on questions and answers like the one you presented.

All the counter arguments suggest is the existence of a possibility in making it work. However, they are unlikely at best because anybody who seriously reflects on how SE has done things so far with FFXIV (back since late 1.0) will be able to tell that they're preparing a story here that is leading up to the release of Rogue and Ninja, which will be treated as a sort of "live" event in the story.

The way I predict it works is a basic side quest(line) leading to unlocking Rogue is introduced. This sidequest further elaborates on the already introduced Fraternity backstory and involves Thancred (probably a quest from him that leads you to the now public face of the Fraternity (Rogue Guild). From there on, once you hit level 30 Rogue, you are sent to Yugiri who then proceeds to be the Ninja questline NPC.

[Giantbane]

I still don't believe it to be a hurdle. It's simply too easy to level a job to 50 and do some quest leg work if it plays out like that. If they want to play Ninja they will get over it and do whatever it takes easily.

They have gone to great lengths to attract casual players. While you and I and ... probably anybody posting on this board may not consider the 30-60 hours it would take to unlock Ninja from scratch (as you are proposing), it is more daunting for a real casual player that may only play a few hours a week.

They won't even see the narrative break until they're well into the game and are already hooked. The "you have to play though most of the main story to unlock ninja" is something they get presented with early when they've not really formed an attachment to the game. In comparison, the break in the narrative is so much less likely to bother a new player.


Even then, that's only considering bare minimum implementation where they *do* break narrative and don't find some way to make the story work (which they're pretty good about).

[silentwindfr]

all of this amaze me... i still wonder why we do have this debat... since it seems quite clear that they have decide to introduce the rogue/ninja throught the 2.1 and 2.2 quest line... that they will use the story quest from the 2.4 for give us acces to the new class/jobs, all the argument about the fact that new player will have to play and such are irrevelant... most of you seems to forget that them primary goal as developper of mmorpg, is not to give to every wish of the new player and casual... but to keep player to play.

by making the rogue/ninja gated behind the story of quest line, it's make sure that player that really want to play the ninja will go throught that and will spend time into the game.
since the start, they have never give stuff for people level 1... at best it's for level 15, but most of the time, the acces for the further content is the level 50. (42 at best)
like i have said from the start, no class added after the release of ARR, will be added to the starting class, don't dream of it! at best you will get the gunner and that all! nothing more than this.

you can try to find any good way to justify to give the class as starting class, but most of the time, your way... ask to retcon some part of the story or add some deus ex machina. they haven't done it before and they will never break the lore of them game just for please new player or add more player... they will advertise, that player can unlock later more class by progressing, than saying, you can choose any class at the start.

most of the people asking for put the rogue as starting class, are still thinking like if we had to remake a whole new character for play new class, when it's not the case. here add a class can be done simply in the story quest line, since our character are not definite by class, but by the fact to be able to do everything if they want it.

[Niwashi]

Terrible comparison. The entire Scions bit is the process of tying your Company affiliation with the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. Of course there were going to be 3 different versions of you joining the Scions, the main storyline continues from that point on with you as a Scion first, Company Member second. This is vastly different from having some generic Ninja trainer and Yugiri, who would be handing you the same exact quest, complete with the same dialogue and cutscenes.

That one's actually based on starting city rather than GC, but either way, the point is that the game was designed from the outset to have multiple different variations on the main storyline. If SE were adamant about keeping a single consistent story that everybody sees the same way, as some people posting in this thread keep insisting they have to, then we would have all started in the same city and even if we joined different Grand Companies, the difference wouldn't have impacted the storyline. (Though I think the only impact GC has on the story is the location where a certain airship crash lands.)

I actually think changing who the initial NIN quest-giver is based on when we reach 2.2 is an unlikely (though possible) thing for SE to set multiple versions for. A much more likely variation is that the 2.2 story itself would have two slightly different versions, depending on whether the ninja job is already in the game when you reach it or not (or whether you yourself have already unlocked the NIN job or not). But SE could set either one (the main story quests or the job quests) to have multiple versions. Each would only have to be consistent to itself, not to what other people have seen. Given SE's willingness to have multiple versions on early game quests, I don't see how needing multiple versions on quests later in the game would constitute a roadblock to them.

I see "trainer" and quest-giver as the exact same thing in this game. Regardless of who's giving you the quest, you're still gaining the rewards and new skills via said quest that they give you.

The difference lies in whether the quest giver needs to know anything about the job you'll be learning. The scholar quest-giver isn't a scholar (at least not in the sense of the job by that name), and in fact knows quite little about them although he's read a few vague references to such people having existed at one point in the distant past. In no way could he be considered a "trainer" because he isn't teaching us. He urges us to learn more about scholars because he's curious to hear about them from us. If anything, we're the ones teaching him.

Even for the Bard quest, I wouldn't say we have a "trainer" per se when the job is first unlocked. We actually go to a retired Bard who's gone back to being a minstrel in hopes that he'll train us, but he refuses to, being adamant about staying retired. He does offer us a bit of history about how the notion of Bards first came around, but then tells us that if we want to learn any of their skills, we'll have to do that on our own, as he won't show us anything.

Even when we do have a teacher for a job, they're essentially just proposing challenges for us. In the course of completing those challenges, we learn more about the job. But challenges can occur in a lot of quests, regardless of whether they were set in place specifically for the purpose of teaching us that lesson. The quest-giver can just as well be someone we just discuss these events with. Their main purpose in the story is so that we can have a discussion regarding what it is that we've learned.

1) Why would Yugiri suddenly show up when you're level 50? There's no point to this possibility, because it shows a lack of influence that Yugiri should have on the questline. She would be there at 30, and be the one giving you the job stone.

It doesn't have to show a lack of influence on the 30-50 job story. For all we know, the entire NIN storyline from 30-50 could be about trying to find someone who could help us better understand and make better use of these new powers we're learning. Finally meeting a qualified trainer and proving ourselves worthy of her training may be the culmination of that part of the story (with her training itself being the next chapter of the story once the level cap is raised). Influence on a story doesn't have to come at the very beginning of that story.

Lets not forget that there are abilities that you learn at 30, 35, 40, 45 as well. We not going to learn the abilities "on our own."

Why not? We do for other jobs.

2) ... Yugiri training Ninja before her compatriots have found reasonable security in Mor Dhona.

Ok, maybe we can rule out #2 as unlikely to happen. They can have variations on the specific details of how the story plays out, but aren't going to make major changes to a character's overall motivations and purpose. (A pity, as I rather liked the idea of a shadowy figure you never see clearly giving you vague hints that lead to improving your skills, well before you actually figure out who they are.) But yeah, 1 or 3 (learning on our own or from a different trainer from 30-50, then from her post-50) fit better with her story.

A couple of things I think people missed: <snip>

Thanks. Those help fit some things together better.

... points to Yugiri being the quest giver/trainer for Ninja.

I think it clearly points to her being a quest giver/trainer for Ninja. I just disagree on whether that necessarily has to start with your very first NIN quest.

[Giantbane]

all of this amaze me... i still wonder why we do have this debat... since it seems quite clear that they have decide to introduce the rogue/ninja throught the 2.1 and 2.2 quest line.

the 2.1 - 2.2 quests weren't to *introduce* the rogue/ninja. it was to tease the current players of the game with "HEY GUESS WHAT'S COMING!!!"

kind of like the new ixali beastmen quests throws out a big "HEY, GUESS WHERE THE EXPANSION IS HEADING!!!!" in the quest line.

It's not about establishing a fixed story line that must be adhered to perfectly

most of the people asking for put the rogue as starting class, are still thinking like if we had to remake a whole new character for play new class, when it's not the case. here add a class can be done simply in the story quest line, since our character are not definite by class, but by the fact to be able to do everything if they want it.

No, it's about new players that have to start from scratch. The only people who are arguing this here are

people that have friends that might start playing the game and are interested in ninja
vs.
People who already have characters at 50 that don't like the "idea" of a narrative break, even though this doesn't effect them at all .

[Erudain]

So, lets see... a few possibilities:
1) At level 30, we find a NIN job stone and learn the art on our own until, 20 levels later, Yugiri shows up and teaches us some more advanced uses of it.
2) At level 30, we learn the NIN job from Yugiri without knowing who she is, so when we later meet her in the storyline, we think it's the first time we've seen her. (Only the inherent secrecy of the NIN art makes this possibility feasible.) In the next post-50 NIN job quest we find out that our secretive trainer is really Yugiri.
3) Yugiri isn't really the only ninja around. At level 30, we start training with another ninja, who preceded Yugiri in coming to Eorzea. After level 50, Yugiri takes over our training.
.

Option 1 & 3 would need to rework the entire cutscene where Thancerd and Yugiri fight the Sahagin....the other NPCs would have already seen you fight in that style for 20 levels. They can't be all that surprised to see 2 more ppl with the same fight style.
Option 2 is unlikely since they were on a boat on the run.

Re-wrting that CS or have it trigger differently depending if the player has NIN unlocked already, seems like the best way to go if they want to make NIN available at lv30.

[silentwindfr]

That one's actually based on starting city rather than GC, but either way, the point is that the game was designed from the outset to have multiple different variations on the main storyline. If SE were adamant about keeping a single consistent story that everybody sees the same way, as some people posting in this thread keep insisting they have to, then we would have all started in the same city and even if we joined different Grand Companies, the difference wouldn't have impacted the storyline. (Though I think the only impact GC has on the story is the location where a certain airship crash lands.)

that a point i want to clarify, why do we start in different city based on the class we choose? for avoid what we did happend while the beta phase 1-2 everybody was in the same starting area, more important it's for create a universe, each class are tie to a city for create a more deep world. you must know that while the V1, a loooooot of player was using only uld'ah and for avoid this, they have used this way.
in the V1 it was possible to choose your class and starting city seperatly, it was a choose of Yoshi-P and him team to create a more interesting story and avoid over populated starting area. after level 15, the story, whatever the city or GC you did choose will remain the same! only one story. and they work really hard for offer us a story really deep and interesting.

i will say something, it's not at us to decide where the story go, but Yoshi-p and him team, we are the player, not the creator, if they have wanted to do it differently, like said by some, they will not have introduce the rogue/ninja like they have done it!

snips

if new player want to have acces to glamour, they need to get level 50, it's the same, like i have said countless time before. we will have far more class added, and don't hope, that they will make them a starting class. all this debat have no interest since from the start it was clear, that they will never add it to the starting class. but people complain, that them right after all.

finally like i have said, it's not at us to decide where go the story, it's not at us to complain and want them to... simply create a story that can be ignored. soo far, all i see are complain that are empty, since from the 2.2 it was clear, that the class will be added throught story quest!

anyway, if a new player want to play ninja, all i can say is: play the game and work for get it. since, SE don't tend to offer stuff for nothing (remember the relic?)

[MageBlack]

All the counter arguments suggest is the existence of a possibility in making it work. However, they are unlikely at best because anybody who seriously reflects on how SE has done things so far with FFXIV (back since late 1.0) will be able to tell that they're preparing a story here that is leading up to the release of Rogue and Ninja, which will be treated as a sort of "live" event in the story.

The way I predict it works is a basic side quest(line) leading to unlocking Rogue is introduced. This sidequest further elaborates on the already introduced Fraternity backstory and involves Thancred (probably a quest from him that leads you to the now public face of the Fraternity (Rogue Guild). From there on, once you hit level 30 Rogue, you are sent to Yugiri who then proceeds to be the Ninja questline NPC.

Ok, so you are on the side of the fence with it being gated and will not be available as a starter class. There are some valid arguments for that and many of which I share sentiment with.

"We are in your debt admiral, I realize that it scares qualifies as repayment but if it please you I shall set about sharing my martial knowledge with your people at once."

[MageBlack]

Also, regardless of any story limitations, ninjas and rogue players will be wandering the world. Trust me, they will be everywhere. I wonder how that will factor into the lore? Will SE block us from seeing any ninjas until we unlock that part of the story?