Rogue/Ninja Starting Class?

[ZReport]

Yeah, they can't possibly have different characters see different NPCs involved in the same quest. That's why we were all invited to join the Scions by the same character. Except...oh yeah...we weren't. SE hasn't shown any reluctance so far about having multiple versions of the same event. I'm not sure why some players are so adamant that they couldn't have any additional quests diverge, despite having quite a few that already do.

And different NIN quest-givers is only one of the possible ways a story divergence might be used. Another (perhaps more likely) one would be to just tweak a few dialog lines in Yugiri's current story, so that for players getting there after NIN is in the game, her fighting style is rare and unusual but not wholly unique in Eorzea.



I think you're confusing trainer with quest-giver. That's why I brought up the comparison to the scholar quests earlier. We have no trainer as a scholar. We have a quest-giver who's simply a marauder who read about them in an old book and got curious. We learn the job on our own. There's nothing "nonsensical" about the idea we might learn the NIN job on our own as well (particularly since it seems it's really the job stones that teach us jobs anyway).

Now, there is a reference to Yugiri providing some training, but that might come much later, after we've already gotten the job stone and gone through 20 levels of learning it on our own (or from someone else) first. She might only be providing the more advanced training for the post-50 quests. That doesn't automatically imply she has to give us the first quest as well.

So, lets see... a few possibilities:
1) At level 30, we find a NIN job stone and learn the art on our own until, 20 levels later, Yugiri shows up and teaches us some more advanced uses of it.
2) At level 30, we learn the NIN job from Yugiri without knowing who she is, so when we later meet her in the storyline, we think it's the first time we've seen her. (Only the inherent secrecy of the NIN art makes this possibility feasible.) In the next post-50 NIN job quest we find out that our secretive trainer is really Yugiri.
3) Yugiri isn't really the only ninja around. At level 30, we start training with another ninja, who preceded Yugiri in coming to Eorzea. After level 50, Yugiri takes over our training.

Well, there's several that would work. If SE is inventive enough (which they are) they can probably come up with a few more. And of these three, I don't think the first two should need any changes to what's already in place, and the third only needs a few minor dialog tweaks of the sort already in place for many other quests.


It seems there's no real need for SE to make NIN an exclusively post-50 job. Of course, they could if they want to, but I see little reason to assume they'd want to.

Terrible comparison. The entire Scions bit is the process of tying your Company affiliation with the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. Of course there were going to be 3 different versions of you joining the Scions, the main storyline continues from that point on with you as a Scion first, Company Member second. This is vastly different from having some generic Ninja trainer and Yugiri, who would be handing you the same exact quest, complete with the same dialogue and cutscenes.

I see "trainer" and quest-giver as the exact same thing in this game. Regardless of who's giving you the quest, you're still gaining the rewards and new skills via said quest that they give you.

1) Why would Yugiri suddenly show up when you're level 50? There's no point to this possibility, because it shows a lack of influence that Yugiri should have on the questline. She would be there at 30, and be the one giving you the job stone. Lets not forget that there are abilities that you learn at 30, 35, 40, 45 as well. We not going to learn the abilities "on our own."

2) This makes more plausible sense, because it's an attempt to sidestep continuity. The only problem with this is the fact that the overall 2.2 story would have to be changed to accompany this addition. Why? Because you would have to solve the continuity problem that arises by Yugiri being in Eorzea training Ninja when she's supposed to be on the Doman boat coming right out as Alphinaud is there to be the first to greet her -- this would happen if you as the player haven't completed "The Mother of Exiles" 2.2 Story Quest. That entire scene would have to be removed from the player's storyline or altered severely to accompany the fact that they've already met Yugiri prior.

Yet another continuity problem would have to be solved -- Yugiri training Ninja before her compatriots have found reasonable security in Mor Dhona. Yugiri only felt comfortable going with the Rogue Guild members to train because she knew her compatriots and family were in good hands in Mor Dhona. She even says as such in the storyline. Why would she be suddenly be training Ninja before the exodus of her people to Mor Dhona? Where did she find the time between meeting with the Sultanate and the Syndicate to train Ninja adventurers?

You know Yugiri was still on the boat the entire time because of this dialogue:

Yugiri: Much and more has occurred since first I beheld Eorzea from the galleon's deck. Suffice it to say, I did not envisage being invited to play a part in your noble struggle. (She's talking about traveling to Ul'Dah and the Sahagin/Leviathan encounter.)

3) Also doesn't make sense, but it's not outside the realm of of possibility. It would also require an altering of the 2.2 story, but it would solve the continuity problems I've stated in #2. What more, it could be some cool storyline based on Shadow from FFVI who somehow got dimension-displaced.

Ninja isn't going to be some post-50 job where they suddenly get more abilities than the jobs already in game. It will follow the exact same quest:reward ratio that every other job has provided.

A couple of things I think people missed:

You report your victory over Leviathan to a grateful Merlwyb, who pronounces you her nation's greatest ally. Apparently inspired by your philanthropic endeavors, she subsequently pledges to send provisions to the Doman refugees at Revenant's Toll. Keen to repay this act of kindness, Yugiri, in turn, offers to share knowledge of her Far Eastern martial art with any who would learn. In response to her concern that the style may seem outlandish to Eorzeans, Thancred reveals that there are individuals in Limsa Lominsa who are more than capable of adapting to the techniques. Though the details yet remain hazy, you sense that interesting times lie ahead for you and your fellow adventurers.

Quest Log after "Lord of the Whirl."

Zanthael gives you a letter of introduction from Merlwyb, which should grant Yugiri access to the Lominsan underworld. Take the letter to the southern area of the lower decks, and show it to the inconspicuous man.

"Despite Zanthael's earlier warnings, the inconspicuous man extends Yugiri the warmest of Lominsan welcomes. Duly heartened, she declares her intent to study the fighting techniques employed by his fraternity, and expresses her hope that you will be her student when the time is ripe."

Quest Log after you "When Yugiri Met the Fraternity."

When next you meet Lady Minfilia, pray relay to her my humblest thanks. Would that I could do so in person, but I must needs fulfill my promise to the Admiral. Till we meet again, Warrior of Light.

Dialogue after "When Yugiri Met the Fraternity."

Not sure how many more examples people want that points to Yugiri being the quest giver/trainer for Ninja. SE isn't going to go back and add stuff to the 2.2 storyline to solve a simple continuity problem that solves itself by completing the quests.

[LineageRazor]

A couple of things I think people missed:

Again, just as with the previous quest dialog you posted, this only indicates that Yugiri would LIKE to teach you. It is completely neutral as to whether or not she will actually be your teacher. It is also neutral as to whether you might have already learned some Ninja abilities.

SE has NOT written themselves into a corner. They have an enormous number of options, many of them stated in this thread, that will allow Rogue and Ninja to be accessable BEFORE the 2.2 storyline that will not upset lore in any significant manner - and as for the minor manners, these can be corrected with minor dialogue changes that are triggered by whether or not you've unlocked the class/job at that point, similar to the aformentioned quest dialog changes you get when doing a quest involving guildmasters that depend on whether or not you've unlocked/leveled that class before you do the quest.

These are NOT farfetched. They are narratively sound options.

SE has options - but will they USE these options, or take the easy way out and make the class/job an "advanced" job, forcing the player to complete through 2.2 before they can unlock them? That I can't say. Sometimes SE is amazingly thorough, sometimes they take shortcuts that make me facepalm *COUGHhuntsCOUGH*.

One thing I predict: IF Ninja is available pre-2.2 cutscenes, Yugiri will NEVER be our teacher, regardless of her desire to be. Not for unlocking Ninja, not for only the level 50 Ninja quest, and not for any higher-level quests in the future, after the level cap is raised. This, too, is narratively sound - an individual will not always get what they want, and Yugiri is no exception to that rule.

[MageBlack]

Again, just as with the previous quest dialog you posted, this only indicates that Yugiri would LIKE to teach you. It is completely neutral as to whether or not she will actually be your teacher. It is also neutral as to whether you might have already learned some Ninja abilities.

SE has NOT written themselves into a corner. They have an enormous number of options, many of them stated in this thread, that will allow Rogue and Ninja to be accessable BEFORE the 2.2 storyline that will not upset lore in any significant manner - and as for the minor manners, these can be corrected with minor dialogue changes that are triggered by whether or not you've unlocked the class/job at that point, similar to the aformentioned quest dialog changes you get when doing a quest involving guildmasters that depend on whether or not you've unlocked/leveled that class before you do the quest.

These are NOT farfetched. They are narratively sound options.

SE has options - but will they USE these options, or take the easy way out and make the class/job an "advanced" job, forcing the player to complete through 2.2 before they can unlock them? That I can't say. Sometimes SE is amazingly thorough, sometimes they take shortcuts that make me facepalm *COUGHhuntsCOUGH*.

One thing I predict: IF Ninja is available pre-2.2 cutscenes, Yugiri will NEVER be our teacher, regardless of her desire to be. Not for unlocking Ninja, not for only the level 50 Ninja quest, and not for any higher-level quests in the future, after the level cap is raised. This, too, is narratively sound - an individual will not always get what they want, and Yugiri is no exception to that rule.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Yugiri never said she would teach you specifically, I thought it was more along of lines of sharing her skills with Eorzeans as way of earning their keep for being allowed to seek refuge here and even that doesnt necessarily mean She will teach anyone personally. Its how a leader speaks when speaking for their followers. Also i seem to recall mention of other Domans that had come over and defected or scouted. I highly doubt this is the first ever contact with Domans and their Culture seeing as how Yshtola and the others are somewhat familiar with who they are and where they came from. Ninjas are by rights a secretive group, striking from shadows.

Also, I dont understand how people think it will function being gated. I have heard that to keep lore consistent it should be gated but I havent heard any suggestions on HOW it will be gated. You hit 50, unlock rogue(?) and you are level one? or is rogue a starting class but you can't be a ninja until you unlock it through the story making you be a rogue until level 50? Or will rogue start at level 50 and you will have to unlock and learn skills through quests that teach you how to use them? do we get all the skills normally earned through levelling right away if we start at 50? I'm not sure how it would work, but i'm sure there is a way. Personally though I think that they cant gate a class behind content levelling. Jobs are a different matter but even so, the first Job for the class would have to be obtainable at level 30 like the others are. What would make sense gating behind levels or content would be more advanced jobs like Red Mage that would require Conjuror, Thaumaturge, and Gladiator. and that would just be a secondary job, not the first job.

I wasnt arguing, just trying to add to some of the things you have said.