So resetting's against the rules now?

[Ashkendor]

The sense of entitlement that leads people to believe that they MUST be at every mob absolutely baffles me. I'm starting to think that Squenix should not have bothered even coding the hunt system; instead, they could just put an Allied Seals vending machine in town since that seems to be what people are after anyway.

Is it annoying when people start pulling as soon as they get to a mob? Sure, it's annoying. Sure, I grump about it a bit but then I simply note the ToD and move on to the next one. I don't abuse these people over shout, I don't blacklist them, I simply move on to the next mark. If it starts happening a lot and I start to get frustrated, I get out of the party and go find something else to do until things settle down a bit.

[ispano]

Enkrateia, if you're at fanfest I want to shake your hand. If not, that's ok too!

Then, by your logic, people who do resets are also choosing to potentially harm themselves in hopes of benefiting the greater good.

See, it's not so black and white... which is why SE is emphasizing intent above all else, as they should.

A good reset easily results in more people being helped than being harmed. There's no denying this. In addition, people who are playing the content as intended and grouped into parties are almost always likely to still get full credit if they're already there. I run hunts all the time; I know this first-hand.

You should read Enkrateia's posts.

[ispano]

Actually, that's not griefing.



Can you say then outright that resetting is 100% griefing and reportable? Say the word and this is all cleared up and we'd know where we stand.

How could the GMs possibly work out someone's intent in resetting the mob? I can only see this as being stressful for them.

There are actually accidental resets. Some have been mentioned in the thread even. Like if someone pulled an A rank, not realizing it was an A rank and a few people started fighting it. They now realize they can't tank it because they're alone and have no healer so they run away. There's more than just chat logs for SE to look at in regards to things like this.

[Thayos]

OK, Enkrateia... now I am thoroughly confused (which isn't easy to do).

First, you said SE ultimately looks toward intent in determining violations.

Now, you're saying even good intent interferes with gameplay.

So which is it? Is a person with good intent NOT punished because his or her intent wasn't to grief, or is the person punished because any reset that's not accidental could potentially interfere with someone else?

You should read Enkrateia's posts.

I have, and until the last post, the most important word in all of them was "intent."

[Alukah]

Can you say then outright that resetting is 100% griefing and reportable? Say the word and this is all cleared up and we'd know where we stand. Otherwise people with only good intentions and who are a net benefit to the server are going to get reported and penalised for what they thought was a good thing to do.

How could the GMs possibly work out someone's intent in resetting the mob? I can only see this as being stressful for them.

OK, Enkrateia... now I am thoroughly confused (which isn't easy to do).

First, you said SE ultimately looks toward intent in determining violations.

Now, you're saying even good intent interferes with gameplay.

So which is it? Is a person with good intent NOT punished because his or her intent wasn't to grief, or is the person punished because any reset that's not accidental could potentially interfere with someone else?



I have, and until the last post, the most important word in all of them was "intent."

Again, work from the confirmed fact that resetting an elite means griefing, what they have to determine when someone resets if they really wanted to reset the elite (intentionally) or not, not your personal reasons behind the reset, because every single person will have a different reason.

The reset was intentional and the person has previous records of showing that kind of behavior? Warning.
The reset was not intentional and the person has no previous records of showing that kind behavior? Walk free.

[ispano]

I have, and until the last post, the most important word in all of them was "intent."

Right here.

Again, work from the confirmed fact that resetting an elite means griefing, what they have to determine when someone resets if they really wanted to reset the elite (intentionally) or not, not your personal reasons behind the reset, because every single person will have a different reason.

Basically, even though you intended to help the group that was incoming, that doesn't change that you intentionally, even indirectly, griefed those already fighting for someone elses benefit. Be it yourself or the incoming group.

But it also wouldn't hurt if some people were a little less selfish (I'm looking at you, early pullers) in their gameplay.

Yee, Post Limit.

That's another misconception. If the mob is not claimed and just walking around, it's free game. That's actually the way the system is designed. It's just the people who feel they have good intentions, want to get as many people in as possible that goes against it. Especially since these "rules" if you will are player made, and not everyone agrees with them, leaving them really with no legs to stand on, since those rules don't apply. You can say it's selfish of those who pulled with the intent to get credit. I can say it's selfish of the group to tell people they have to wait, considering how the contribution system works.

No, there are early pulls. If a mob is found by members of a group who are then waiting for their friends to arrive before pulling, and then you run in there and pull, then that's an early pull.

Justify it all you want, but it is what it is. You can't say people who reset are always in the wrong but then act like early pullers are always in the right.

The mob was unclaimed, they claimed it. They most certainly ARE in the right.

I wouldn't call that a confirmation. The GM says that yes, resetting a mob does disrupt gameplay... but the GM already said this in his/her first post here. The GM then went on to say that investigations are ultimately done to determine the nature of the violator's intent... which, in post 77, the GM says can be "good."

No, he said he appreciates the good intentions. Not that those good intentions are ok. In fact he says it in the sentence right after.

As a player myself, I can certainly appreciate the good intentions of resetting to try to let as many people as possible get the rewards as possible. However, that being said, the reality of these intentions have been pointed out in this thread by others: by intentionally resetting a hunt mark, you have chosen to interfere with the game play of other customers.

The most common anecdotal cases that highlight how this could be an issue are those enemies that can disable large groups with abilities, such as those that cause long-lasting petrification/sleep. Resetting does not remove these effects, and with a large group arriving, this could cause the people who were fighting it to not be able to participate (or fully participate) due to the hunt mark dying quickly. Even with a full group, bad timing could result in no participation when you and your full group was there and fairly participating before.

Resetting is a very temporary resolution that can have real impact on another group's game play, since monsters that are reset, in reality, do not go back to neutral. They are immediately attacked, which continues the cycle, only possibly excluding other customers who were able to make it in a timely manner.

I still wonder about the situation I posed earlier in the thread, though. What if a party that finds a mob elects to shout and wait to allow others to try for credit, but a lone griefer decides to run in and pull the mob on their own to prevent the finding party from waiting? Are they then justified in attempting to reset the mob and resume waiting?

No, the group waiting didn't claim it, the mob was still up for grabs.

[Ashkendor]

Again, work from the confirmed fact that resetting an elite means griefing, what they have to determine when someone resets if they really wanted to reset the elite (intentionally) or not, not your personal reasons behind the reset, because every single person will have a different reason.

^ This. There are situations where a mob can be reset and it was unintentional. Maybe someone didn't see it and basically facepulled by way of tripping over it, but they kept on running. In this case, the mob would reset but it was accidental. Purposely resetting and saying over shout "I'M DOING THIS FOR YOU GUYS!" doesn't change that it's griefing. If it was that simple, every troll ever would just start to yell that their intent was good.

[Aegis]

The sense of entitlement that leads people to believe that they MUST be at every mob absolutely baffles me.

Show one quote of someone saying this. That they must be at every mob. Just one.




Or admit you are misrepresenting the views of others to make your argument easier.

^ This. There are situations where a mob can be reset and it was unintentional. Maybe someone didn't see it and basically facepulled by way of tripping over it, but they kept on running. In this case, the mob would reset but it was accidental. Purposely resetting and saying over shout "I'M DOING THIS FOR YOU GUYS!" doesn't change that it's griefing. If it was that simple, every troll ever would just start to yell that their intent was good.

Then mods should say that only accidental resets are ok. That would be acceptable too. But they haven't. They've left it vague

[Thayos]

That makes sense, Alukah. But I'd still like that confirmation from this GM, because it's pretty clear that resetting a mob CAN be done with non-malicious intent. In fact, removing the option to reset is a big leg-up for people who pull early with bad intent (which does happen... the doors swing both ways).

The sense of entitlement that leads people to believe that they MUST be at every mob absolutely baffles me.

This kind of goes both ways, too. While I support some resets, I've never reset a mob myself. And when I don't get credit because of an early pull, I don't spew bile in shouts, either. It's just a game and people should chill. But it also wouldn't hurt if some people were a little less selfish (I'm looking at you, early pullers) in their gameplay.

[ToffeeCoffee]

That makes sense, Alukah. But I'd still like that confirmation from this GM, because it's pretty clear that resetting a mob CAN be done with non-malicious intent. In fact, removing the option to reset is a big leg-up for people who pull early with bad intent (which does happen... the doors swing both ways).



This kind of goes both ways, too. While I support some resets, I've never reset a mob myself. And when I don't get credit because of an early pull, I don't spew bile in shouts, either. It's just a game and people should chill. But it also wouldn't hurt if some people were a little less selfish (I'm looking at you, early pullers) in their gameplay.

The mentality that people who pull mobs early should be frowned upon is what needs fixing. There are no early pulls, there are only just pulls. No one needs to wait for you or your linkshell. That is not being selfish. Thinking you are entitled to every spawn is what is selfish.