So resetting's against the rules now?

[Krr]

But they are definitely helping a very large group of people and only possibly helping a smaller group. On balance, it's a benefit to the community as a whole, not a detriment.

Hunting megacorp linkshells who flash mob zones to check their elite mob spawns and rig them with resets are not "the community as a whole". They are a very, very small niche of the community that appear situationally in large numbers.

With ToD monopolization and massive numbers of players sweeping spawnpoints, the common player can't compete even before resets enter the equation, and is forced to either sit out on the activity, or join their zerg. And believe it or not - many of these zergs actually have developed entry fees and engage in abusive social behavior players must participate in to share in their assets.

Zerg hunting as a public activity for "the entire community" is a myth. Zerg hunting excludes basically everyone outside of the linkshell network or FC doing it.

TWhat's that? Some player outside of our circle just joined the fray and the mob is almost dead so he won't get credit? Better reset it - said no one ever. What's that? The mob is almost dead but our group isn't here yet? Better try to steal aggro and reset it until my group/LS/FC gets here - said every self righteous participating player.

Boom. Welpser hits the nail on the head. This perfectly expresses the mindset of hunting shells who use resets to steal credit in the name of their zerg.

[ispano]

But they are definitely helping a very large group of people and only possibly helping a smaller group. On balance, it's a benefit to the community as a whole, not a detriment.

You're still looking at it wrong. How you SHOULD of said it is like this "But they are definitely helping a very large group of people and hurting a smaller group."

That's the problem, you ignore what you're doing to that smaller group. Just by virtue of forcing them to wait for your zerg to arrive, will potentially cost them full credit, even though they claimed it first.

Wait what? If there are 100 people there, the chance of a solo player getting anything above 1 seal is essentially nil unless they claim, which thanks to the person who charged in and pulled, they won't get. If the mob gets reset, the person who spotted it may have a chance to get his group there and get more credit.

And this is incredibly selfish. You would get 5 seals, the 1 or 2 others would get 5, maybe. so a total of 15 seals. If you waited for a hundred people, there would be up to 500 seals rewarded in total (it could be less for those not in a party). Now of course, the game supports you in what you're doing, it's not wrong by the rules of the game, I certainly find it much ruder than someone resetting in this situation though and worse for the community of your server.

It's still nil even if they DO claim. And if they wanted it before others did, they should of claimed it.

And in relation to what I said above, you feel that hurting a small group is ok if it helps a larger group. That's not how it works. There's a reason we have terms like opportunity cost and such. That group was there, the mob was unclaimed and they wanted credit. They pulled and started killing. The zerg was NOT there, they have zero entitlement to the mob. Sure if they get there to do enough to earn credit, fine. But there's NO reason to punish those that found and pulled it because you feel that larger group deserves to get full credit too.

That is simply wrong.

[Krr]

Mobs in the game are designed to "reset" for two reasons - the first is so that they don't chase players forever, and the second is so that they don't get kited away to exploitative positions.

Resetting a mob because someone else pulled it first and you don't want to lose credit is unintended behavior. Elite marks are given Provoke immunity to prevent this behavior, yet it still occurs through the use of high-level tanks with aggro cooldowns. Not only is it a clear misuse of game mechanics for an unintended cause, it causes harm to the players who rightfully pulled the mob for those who arrived at it. Resets actually punish players outside of "the zerg" by - very frequently - denying them mob credit for the thing they spent time forming a party and entering a fight with due to the massive amounts of players credit gets split by.

Zerg linkshells already control ToD lists, spawn conditions and points, and entire zones with open windows in the name of benefitting "the playerbase". In reality, the only people they benefit with arbitrary etiquette rules is themselves - if you're not part of those groups, you lose playing by them. That's what they want.

You aren't entitled to a hunt mob. The group that pulls it first is. Those are the mechanics of the game, played as intended, not played with side-stepping exploits.

[Aegis]

If I can give a counter-example, on our server there is a GC called, let's say, Unique/Untradeable. They make their gil by selling Turn 5 clears and Primal wins. Hunts have reduced their customer base. Now, they run to every NM pop they can and claim it as soon as one of them arrives, regardless of how many people are there. The mob reacts as it always has, by swearing at the puller but attacking anyway because they don't want to lose credit.

Often, someone will reset the NM. I have never once seen the puller criticised in game, but U/U get cussed and blisted out the wazoo.

Yet on the forums everyone appears to think the deserter is the griefer, not the person denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals.

Bear in mind, this FC does nothing to pop the NMs and often causes those who find/pop it to get minimum rewards as the rest of the group wasn't there. Their only purpose is to make it harder for people to get seals.

[Welsper59]

Yet on the forums everyone appears to think the deserter is the briefer, not the person denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals.

There are MANY flaws with this point/argument that's why. The biggest one being what extent you actually think this falls under as being objective rather than subjective. Why do we not wait for everyone on the server to get there then? Unrealistic right? I agree. Then why wouldn't you wait for the few stragglers that are on their way, but not part of your group/LS/FC? I'm sure you'd tell them "sorry but you gotta get here sooner if you want credit". To what degree does it give you the right to deny them the credit, when your idea is that it's bad for a smaller group to "deny" others the chance at seals? Was it unrealistic for you to wait just an extra minute for them to get there? Groups generally do wait a very short time, but once the horde is there... you better be there in seconds before they pull, otherwise you're SOL.

The entire "greater good" mentality being used here is flawed and always used as a scapegoat for what is actually personal gain. There has never been an example of it being done solely for "everyone to get credit", as that would imply you're thinking about others equally to either yourself or your group/LS/FC/friends. What's that? Some player outside of our circle just joined the fray and the mob is almost dead so he won't get credit? Better reset it - said no one ever. What's that? The mob is almost dead but our group isn't here yet? Better try to steal aggro and reset it until my group/LS/FC gets here - said every self righteous participating player.

[Aegis]

There are MANY flaws with this point/argument that's why. The biggest one being what extent you actually think this falls under as being objective rather than subjective. Why do we not wait for everyone on the server to get there then? Unrealistic right? I agree. Then why wouldn't you wait for the few stragglers that are on their way, but not part of your group/LS/FC? I'm sure you'd tell them "sorry but you gotta get here sooner if you want credit". To what degree does it give you the right to deny them the credit, when your idea is that it's bad for a smaller group to "deny" others the chance at seals? Was it unrealistic for you to wait just an extra minute for them to get there? Groups generally do wait a very short time, but once the horde is there... you better be there in seconds before they pull, otherwise you're SOL.

This group doesn't wait, at all. It waits for an announcement, gets there and claims as soon as they dismount.

The entire "greater good" mentality being used here is flawed and always used as a scapegoat for what is actually personal gain. There has never been an example of it being done solely for "everyone to get credit", as that would imply you're thinking about others equally to either yourself or your group/LS/FC/friends. What's that? Some player outside of our circle just joined the fray and the mob is almost dead so he won't get credit? Better reset it - said no one ever. What's that? The mob is almost dead but our group isn't here yet? Better try to steal aggro and reset it until my group/LS/FC gets here - said every self righteous participating player.

I never suggested everyone at all, it's a sliding scale, the longer its held without pull the better. The person who gets hate to reset it by the way would have gold contribution anyway. He/she has nothing to gain from the reset itself other than the respect of the server. And yes, parties I've been in have reset mobs that were pulled too early even though we were all there for full credit.

You're still looking at it wrong. How you SHOULD of said it is like this "But they are definitely helping a very large group of people and hurting a smaller group."

That possibly was there for a reason. Very rarely do you get CCd and have no chance of making any contribution again before it dies.

It's still nil even if they DO claim. And if they wanted it before others did, they should of claimed it.

That reeks of 'screw you buddy I got mine!' More mature adults wait and work together.

[ispano]

The person who gets hate to reset it by the way would have gold contribution anyway.

Again, this is false. Once it resets, he loses all of that, because it resets. Not to mention being on top of the enmity list the whole fight and/or having claim does not guarantee full credit. I've personally tested it.

That possibly was there for a reason. Very rarely do you get CCd and have no chance of making any contribution again before it dies.

Doesn't matter. The intent to reset, regardless of why you think you're doing it is intent to harm those who are already fighting it.

[Aegis]

Doesn't matter. The intent to reset, regardless of why you think you're doing it is intent to harm those who are already fighting it.

If they get gold credit still, they have not been harmed. The intent to reset is the intent to help others with the awareness you may potentially hurt others.

[Welsper59]

This group doesn't wait, at all. It waits for an announcement, gets there and claims as soon as they dismount.

To be honest, that's how it should be. Even hunt groups portray that exact mentality. Who's the one that shouts in the zone? Not the hunt group, it's the solo player. Members of the LS/FC might tell their friends about something, and that's acceptable by everyone, but there's still the exclusive nature that if you're not part of them, you have little rights of say on the matter. Which is where the flaw starts to come to light. The concern is only for those that are part of your circle, even if it is 100 people, it's still a concern for ONLY your own. Telling or implying that a smaller outside group essentially has no right to pull something, when your specific circle is not around, is bullying and promoting a monopoly by only you and yours. You may not see it that way because you're part of the larger group, but it IS seen that way by the smaller party. Just like with actual RL bullying, the one doing it often does not see it that way, despite the clear indication that it is by the victim. Obviously, this is a video game and not essentially the same as bullying IRL, but the similarities really are evident.

I never suggested everyone at all, it's a sliding scale, the longer its held without pull the better. The person who gets hate to reset it by the way would have gold contribution anyway. He/she has nothing to gain from the reset itself other than the respect of the server. And yes, parties I've been in have reset mobs that were pulled too early even though we were all there for full credit.

Wrong in that max contribution is retained after a reset. You need to meet the requirements again after a reset to achieve max reward. I agree about the waiting if the mob were neutral while everyone was there. But if you got there late, and a different party is well into the fight itself, you're not as righteous as you might think you are if you decide to reset so that your group can get there for full credit. Now if you admit to it being a bad/messed up action for doing this, then I can just drop the argument on it because... there's no need to go further. If however, you still view this as a purely positive thing, then wow...

The intent to disrupt another customer's game play does not require that the attempt to disrupt another customer's game play was successful. This could still be reported and investigated.

This is very close to what a lot of us wanted to see said. Thank you.

[Aegis]

To be honest, that's how it should be. Even hunt groups portray that exact mentality. Who's the one that shouts in the zone? Not the hunt group, it's the solo player. Members of the LS/FC might tell their friends about something, and that's acceptable by everyone, but there's still the exclusive nature that if you're not part of them, you have little rights of say on the matter. Which is where the flaw starts to come to light. The concern is only for those that are part of your circle, even if it is 100 people, it's still a concern for ONLY your own. Telling or implying that a smaller outside group essentially has no right to pull something, when your specific circle is not around, is bullying and promoting a monopoly by only you and yours. You may not see it that way because you're part of the larger group, but it IS seen that way by the smaller party. Just like with actual RL bullying, the one doing it often does not see it that way, despite the clear indication that it is by the victim. Obviously, this is a video game and not essentially the same as bullying IRL, but the similarities really are evident.

My circle is the whole server.

I never said they have no right to, just that it's selfish to. Also, that's some Minitru level of doublethink. By encouraging people to wait to allow others to contribute you're encouraging a monopoly? wat?

But if you got there late, and a different party is well into the fight itself, you're not as righteous as you might think you are if you decide to reset so that your group can get there for full credit. Now if you admit to it being a bad/messed up action for doing this, then I can just drop the argument on it because... there's no need to go further. If however, you still view this as a purely positive thing, then wow...

I do agree with this. But can you agree that there are circumstances where resetting the mob can have no negative impact on anyone and be a net benefit to the server or do you believe that resetting is a purely negative thing in all circumstances because, wow...