Tank disrespect.

[Maero]

I would like to point out at this point to any DPS that might see this. DPS are a dime a dozen. There is no composition requirements for any of the regular dungeons. YOU DO NOT run the raid. YOU DO NOT call the shots. YOU DO NOT make the rules. YOU ARE NOT special. In fact, YOU ARE as replaceable as a 50 cent light bulb. "We had another DPS within a minute of two" About the time it takes to replace a light bulb.

That's nice, well i have done dungeons before with only 2 dps and 1 healer (Haukke HM) so tanks like yourself are by no means needed. Tanks after all are easy to come by
Would actually like to see you do a dungeon without dps. Tanks that do large pulls should know how to keep agro, especially those of us black mages that use quelling strikes and give more then enough time to keep agro and yet we still get it. And when i go as summoner or Bard i do add dots to other mobs, but if you loose agro to those you really need not be a tank

[Jaarlask]

I'll admit, when i run with friends, and I decide to DPS, I go all out. We've made a challenge to each other, see who can pull off the tank(we all have ilvl50+ tanks). BLM, I can do it on single targets about 70% of the time in dungeons.

when I tank, he does it right back to me as a bard, or as a healer (medica 2 spam!) it's a nice meta game, see how hard it is to keep aggro.

but in DF..or really just DF, DPSing, I make sure to give a little window to the tank, then if I pull more than twice off them, i throttle back, slow the rotation.

In DF if I tank (it was my main originally) in 8man, i better not pull off the MT, you call MT, you better hold it against me. and same for MT, if the OT pulls off me, it's time for me to step down.

It's much for people to do their roles, if you can't, then don't be that role..it's a role..playing..game.

[Ashkendor]

That's nice, well i have done dungeons before with only 2 dps and 1 healer (Haukke HM) so tanks like yourself are by no means needed. Tanks after all are easy to come by

By the same token, most things can be done with no DPS, aside from things like Haukke HM that involve hard DPS checks (if she goes through 3 Beguiling Mist she will then eat one of your party members and Blood Rain the ever-living crap out of the rest). Try T1 with no tank sometime, though. All roles are equally needed and I really wish people would quit being so nasty about it. For every thing that doesn't require a certain role, there's one where it's absolutely necessary. Nobody is trivial, nobody is unneeded.

As far as tanks being easy to come by, tell that to my DF queues.

In DF if I tank (it was my main originally) in 8man, i better not pull off the MT, you call MT, you better hold it against me. and same for MT, if the OT pulls off me, it's time for me to step down.

I don't agree with this sentiment at all. The OT needs to know how to manage aggro so that they are second, not so that they are ripping hate off the MT and creating havoc. Sometimes (especially in things like Syrcus Tower or 8 man content) whoever wants to MT isn't the most geared tank in the party/alliance. I personally think everyone should be allowed the chance to tank things as long as they're geared appropriately for the content.

How about instances where there are tank swap mechanics? If you as OT are ripping hate in Ultima HM or Titan EX back onto you prematurely, you are dooming yourself. Managing your own aggro is part of what makes a good OT.

[Krindor]

I don't agree with this sentiment at all. The OT needs to know how to manage aggro so that they are second, not so that they are ripping hate off the MT and creating havoc. Sometimes (especially in things like Syrcus Tower or 8 man content) whoever wants to MT isn't the most geared tank in the party/alliance. I personally think everyone should be allowed the chance to tank things as long as they're geared appropriately for the content.

How about instances where there are tank swap mechanics? If you as OT are ripping hate in Ultima HM or Titan EX back onto you prematurely, you are dooming yourself. Managing your own aggro is part of what makes a good OT.

Except for bosses with swap mechanics what Jaarlask said is true. During one of my runs of Titan HM i ended up OT even though the other tank had much lower tiered gear, but I let him MT anyways, but as soon as the battle starts I notice that my threat bar is steadily increasing even without defiance and only using Heavy Swing->Maim->SP/SE. After the first wipe I tell the tank that it would be better if I MT as it is severely limiting my damage output as well as any DPS who deals more damage than he can handle, yet this tank decides to continue as MT saying I'm talking BS. So I decide that I'll add one HS->SS->BB as this deals the most damage and I instantly gain aggro of the MT, without defiance.

tldr: Except for bosses with swap mechanics, if the MT can't handle the aggro gen of a OT without Shield Oath/Defiance it is better to switch.

As for DPS, Ceodore has a point in that DPS are replaceable, of course a good dps are hard to find but there's a lot of horrible ones and those that are acting like a douchebag, especially those that are a combination of both, are easily changeable. I don't kick people for being horrible but if I come by a DRG who doesn't use HT and/or CT I usually tell them it's time to start, if they don't answer or start becoming aggressive I usually start thinking that there are probably quite a lot of players to replace him if he did get kicked, compared to tanks, kick a tank and you'll either have to wait for a while or just give up.

[Ashkendor]

tldr: Except for bosses with swap mechanics, if the MT can't handle the aggro gen of a OT without Shield Oath/Defiance it is better to switch.

Oh no doubt it would be better to switch; I know it gimps my damage to have to hold back. If for whatever reason the party still wants that person to MT then I just deal with it though, and even keep an eye out for what the person might be doing wrong to produce so little enmity (when it's not just clearly a gear issue). I just really dislike seeing tanks fighting for aggro mid-battle. It seems like there's always one that has to be BEHIND the mob when he provokes it off me, so inevitably the mob throws a cone/line AoE into the DPS.

I don't kick people for being horrible but if I come by a DRG who doesn't use HT and/or CT I usually tell them it's time to start, if they don't answer or start becoming aggressive I usually start thinking that there are probably quite a lot of players to replace him if he did get kicked, compared to tanks, kick a tank and you'll either have to wait for a while or just give up.

Yeah... if they don't correct the behavior and/or give you the old "Don't tell me how to play my class!!" then I tend to start thinking "bad player" no matter what role that they happen to be in. Unfortunately there's a lot of them. :s

[Maero]

By the same token, most things can be done with no DPS, aside from things like Haukke HM that involve hard DPS checks (if she goes through 3 Beguiling Mist she will then eat one of your party members and Blood Rain the ever-living crap out of the rest). Try T1 with no tank sometime, though. All roles are equally needed and I really wish people would quit being so nasty about it. For every thing that doesn't require a certain role, there's one where it's absolutely necessary. Nobody is trivial, nobody is unneeded.

As far as tanks being easy to come by, tell that to my DF queues.

I was mainly responding to the rude tank fellow that thinks so little of dps, not all of us are like that.
What i am saying is there is a equal amount of really bad tanks that try to be all high and mighty but cannot keep agro and then bitch and leave
I do agree with some of your points however have never had issues finding tanks

[Enyeto]

...there is a equal amount of really bad tanks that try to be all high and mighty but cannot keep agro and then bitch and leave

It's so sad an unfortunate when you get a meathead that can't be a proper meatshield.


More substantial points why Dungeon Finders are bad game implementations. Including:

1. No one plays class X, so queues are too long
2. What's lfg?
3. Too many scrubs get carried
4. One of these guys can be a troll
5. Communication problems
6. /guild or /shout -- "Anyone want to do X?" --- no answer from the ghost town since everyone is waiting on dungeon finder to finish pairing them.
8. People skip stuff that you may need and complain when its 'inconvenient' to go back.
9. Complainers--for any reason (too fast, too slow, too stupid, undergeared, no hate, overgeared causing hate/heal issues, etc.)
10. ePeen (that last update nerfed the bumb between my toons legs)

[Krindor]

It's so sad an unfortunate when you get a meathead that can't be a proper meatshield.


More substantial points why Dungeon Finders are bad game implementations. Including:

1. No one plays class X, so queues are too long
2. What's lfg?
3. Too many scrubs get carried
4. One of these guys can be a troll
5. Communication problems
6. /guild or /shout -- "Anyone want to do X?" --- no answer from the ghost town since everyone is waiting on dungeon finder to finish pairing them.
8. People skip stuff that you may need and complain when its 'inconvenient' to go back.
9. Complainers--for any reason (too fast, too slow, too stupid, undergeared, no hate, overgeared causing hate/heal issues, etc.)
10. ePeen (that last update nerfed the bumb between my toons legs)

Have you been here since game release? Chimaera and Hydra says hi, 5 hours finding people, wipe, another 5 hours for a new group. Yeah DF is so bad.....
Sure the it ruins a bit of the social part of a mmorpg but the queue times are so much shorter compared to when there were no DF, during beta phase 3 when there were no DF, trying to find a group for Satasha took time and a lot of /shout