Is the PS3(4?) holding back the game?

[Tupsi]

Uhh no, that is wrong.... very wrong.

This sentence actually means what it says, not what you think it does. They cannot make the inventory larger than 80 because of the consoles. Not just ps2 but xbox as well. Sorry.

Also, yes.... current consoles do hold the game back (READ LIMIT) of what it can do. You are foolish if you think otherwise. The way you are reading into this is pretty hilarious though. lol

Not wrong at all. They used PS2 limitations as an excuse for the longest. If the PS2 limits their ability to increase inventory space and they still did it years later while XI is still a PS2 game as of 2014, that means the limitation wasn't what held it back, just them not wanting to do the work around needed to get it, hence "no current plans" Anyone who's played XI knows they used quite a lot of excuses to not give us what we wanted at the time. They said they couldn't take inventories past 70 because of "PS2 limitations" and "we can't offer any other inventory systems due to it", yet they introduced Mog Sack, Satchel and Mog Case.

Then again I've learned not to take things as face value when it comes to business, perk of working with them I guess.

It's funny though - whenever someone asks about why PC Only MMOs never really do much beyond "the safe route" no one has an answer - If consoles hold back MMOs, what's holding back MMOs on a platform with virtually no limits as the technology improves basically every couple of months? Pretty sure having access to more than 16gb ram and terabytes upon terabytes of drive space ontop of 6+ core processors can lead to some pretty amazing things....

Yet most PC only MMOs are still designed like 2004 PC MMOs with prettier graphics. You can try to argue "to allow everyone to play", but in reality, if you're rocking a Dual Core or Core Duo PC/Laptop in 2014..they really shouldn't be designing with that in mind, because that means console based MMOs are technically better at that point.

So since you can see the future and believes SE tells no lies - What's the PS3 and PS4 holding back? What couldn't they do in the first Expansion due to the system that held back a system? I mean, if SE can introduce new systems to a PS2 era MMO in a monthly update, what can they not do with a game developed on the PC and later ported to consoles?

[SinisterJoint]

Not wrong at all. They used PS2 limitations as an excuse for the longest. If the PS2 limits their ability to increase inventory space and they still did it years later

You need to read what I said. Tell me which bag in XI has more than 80 slots. NONE because the consoles limit it to that. I didn't say they didn't or couldn't add more bags, I said they couldn't make bags more than 80 spaces because of memory issues.This is FACT and im too lazy to find you the post. I'm sure if you search though that you can find it.


You want to know what is holding back PC Only mmo's? Economics. If you design a game that only high end pc's can realistically play then you aren't getting the most bang for your buck.

Not everyone has over 16gig of ram, or a 6+ core processor, or a 3gig + graphics card. To design a game like that would be stupid because you are only reaching a small target audience.

Why can't I argue "to allow everyone to play"?? It designed like that to allow people to catch up with new hardware? Consoles still wouldn't be better because you still cant upgrade them.

Don't confuse technology with hardware limitations, which the consoles have.

Why do you think our inventories in ARR are so small, ps3 memory.

Your lack of knowledge when it comes to computer parts and what they do explains why you think monthly updates = system still prevalent.

Since you are asking what the ps3 and ps4 are holding back, I'll bite. It's the fact that you cannot upgrade their hardware. They are stagnant systems, meaning that what you see is what you get. Where as a pc is more like a revolving door, capable of having new hardware come in and old hardware go out. THAT is why. It doesn't take someone who can "see the future" to see that.

[Tupsi]

You need to read what I said. Tell me which bag in XI has more than 80 slots..

I played XI since 2002 - They stated flatout they could never take inventories beyond 70. Then they eventually gave us 80 slots. So, how does it go from "never going beyond 70" to giving us:

+80 Main Inventory
+80 Mog Sack
+80 Mog Case
+80 Mog Satchel

SE was quite known for using PS2 Limitations as a "no" or "no current plans" excuse.

Don't confuse technology with hardware limitations, which the consoles have.

So..no answer? Understood, since I'm damn sure consoles are technology and hardware because hardware is a technology because it's the technology that drives the hardware to do what it can do.

Since you are asking what the ps3 and ps4 are holding back, I'll bite. It's the fact that you cannot upgrade their hardware.

That's why I asked this question:

what's holding back MMOs on a platform with virtually no limits as the technology improves basically every couple of months?

FFXI and FFXIV ARR have a few more things going for it than what PC only MMOs offer in terms of systems. While ARR is extremely basic in design, for being "held back" they sure went all out graphically and the use of promixity sound that PC only MMOs seem to struggle with - while likewise many PC only MMOs are using standard engines which let them do a bit more (for example far less clipping, which was a design choice and not due to any limitations.)

[SinisterJoint]

I played XI since 2002

This means what? Oh right, nothing.

So..no answer? Understood, since I'm damn sure consoles are technology and hardware because hardware is a technology because it's the technology that drives the hardware to do what it can do.

You are reaching...I'll give you an A for effort. Technology and Hardware are not the same thing. Besides, I did answer.

I already told you what is holding back pc only mmo's as well, just because you refuse to accept it doesn't make it any less true.

FFXI and FFXIV ARR have a few more things going for it than what PC only MMOs offer in terms of systems. While ARR is extremely basic in design, for being "held back" they sure went all out graphically and the use of promixity sound that PC only MMOs seem to struggle with - while likewise many PC only MMOs are using standard engines which let them do a bit more (for example far less clipping, which was a design choice and not due to any limitations.)

Again what are you trying to prove? You are reading into this sideways and your denial that hardware limitations of the ps3 and ps4 do not have an effect the game.

Do you own a ps3 / ps4 / and pc? You can do some comparisons yourself. I'll list a couple things that are affected.

1) Graphics -- Look at the PS3 and PS4 side by side and you will notice a huge difference. Then put a PC with max settings next to a ps4 and you will notice a difference.

2) UI -- Look at the consoles UI and its limitations and compare it to a PC's UI

3) Inventory

[HEC]

... your denial that hardware limitations of the ... ps4 do not have an effect the game.

Do you own a ps3 / ps4 / and pc? You can do some comparisons yourself.

1) Graphics -- Look at the PS3 and PS4 side by side and you will notice a huge difference. Then put a PC with max settings next to a ps4 and you will notice a difference.

2) UI -- Look at the consoles UI and its limitations and compare it to a PC's UI

3) Inventory

WHAT are you BLABLING about??? Currently there is NO PS4 hardware limitation (and no - game file size limit is not hardware limitation, it's limitation placed by Sony on the whole platform and actually even that could have been overcomed by simply using multiply game save files as other games did already on PS3) and I seriously doubt there will be any in forseable future! And yes - I do have and play game on all 3 platforms and I can tell you that I saw not only worse results on some PCs than PS4 but even than PS3.

PS4 have exactly the same UI as PC including expanded inventory. You're simply making idiot of yourself by such "arguments" and frankly you should go first and compare all 3 platforms thoroughly before posting such nonsense ... Please stop mixing "consoles" / PS3 and PS4 together.

[SinisterJoint]

WHAT are you BLABLING about??? Currently there is NO PS4 hardware limitation (and no - game file size limit is not hardware limitation, it's limitation placed by Sony on the whole platform and actually even that could have been overcomed by simply using multiply game save files as other games did already on PS3) and I seriously doubt there will be any in forseable future! And yes - I do have and play game on all 3 platforms and I can tell you that I saw not only worse results on some PCs than PS4 but even than PS3.

PS4 have exactly the same UI as PC including expanded inventory. You're simply making idiot of yourself by such "arguments" and frankly you should go first and compare all 3 platforms thoroughly before posting such nonsense ... Please stop mixing "consoles" / PS3 and PS4 together.

How am I blabbing? You clearly leave out the ps3 in this glorified argument of yours, which is a LARGE part of my post in general. The PS4 UI is not the exact same, you don't have all the same options as the PC version.

Worse results on, more than likely, a far outdated pc as far as hardware is concerned. Put it next to a top line PC and you can see the difference. Quit trying to compare a commodore 64 to a ps4.

Game file size limit. Why do you think the limit is there? Oh right, hardware. I'm not making an idiot of myself but you sure are making one out of yourself.

I'm sorry that you cant think outside of the now. In two years when pc tech has far surpassed ps4 tech (it already surpasses it by miles) you wont be saying the same nonsense.

The fact remains that the memory limits of consoles (and low end pc's) hold games back from blowing out the box.

Echocia. That is what pc players do is bash console players. I suggest just ignore them.

nobody is bashing, well at least im not lol

[Ryel]

Not wrong at all. They used PS2 limitations as an excuse for the longest. If the PS2 limits their ability to increase inventory space and they still did it years later while XI is still a PS2 game as of 2014, that means the limitation wasn't what held it back, just them not wanting to do the work around needed to get it, hence "no current plans" Anyone who's played XI knows they used quite a lot of excuses to not give us what we wanted at the time. They said they couldn't take inventories past 70 because of "PS2 limitations" and "we can't offer any other inventory systems due to it", yet they introduced Mog Sack, Satchel and Mog Case.

Then again I've learned not to take things as face value when it comes to business, perk of working with them I guess.

It's funny though - whenever someone asks about why PC Only MMOs never really do much beyond "the safe route" no one has an answer - If consoles hold back MMOs, what's holding back MMOs on a platform with virtually no limits as the technology improves basically every couple of months? Pretty sure having access to more than 16gb ram and terabytes upon terabytes of drive space ontop of 6+ core processors can lead to some pretty amazing things....

Yet most PC only MMOs are still designed like 2004 PC MMOs with prettier graphics. You can try to argue "to allow everyone to play", but in reality, if you're rocking a Dual Core or Core Duo PC/Laptop in 2014..they really shouldn't be designing with that in mind, because that means console based MMOs are technically better at that point.

So since you can see the future and believes SE tells no lies - What's the PS3 and PS4 holding back? What couldn't they do in the first Expansion due to the system that held back a system? I mean, if SE can introduce new systems to a PS2 era MMO in a monthly update, what can they not do with a game developed on the PC and later ported to consoles?

You're trying so hard to make the point that a PC only MMO should have this groundbreaking set of systems and mechanics that would fully tax most high end PCs that you're missing the simple fact that most modern MMOs designed to hit a large number of average spec PCs would already blow away what the Ps3 is capable of.

I really don't want this to delve further into a PC vs Console discussion more than it's starting to already, the OP asked if the Ps3/4 will pose issues for the game in the long run and the simple answer is this:

If this game wants to maintain longevity and still compete on the level of modern MMOs being released both now and in the next few years the Ps3 will have to be dropped.

As stated in this thread already Yoshida is aware of this and is prepared to do so. However it wont likely happen within the next year or two, and more than likely you'll have plenty of notice / time to either invest in a Ps4 or a new PC by that time as either option will most likely last you much longer.

[Tupsi]

You're trying so hard to make the point that a PC only MMO should have this groundbreaking set of systems and mechanics

That's my point - If consoles hold back MMOs so much, what's the difference here when a PC only MMO doesn't go above and beyond as is?

you're missing the simple fact that most modern MMOs designed to hit a large number of average spec PCs would already blow away what the Ps3 is capable of.

Indeed, compatibility is great - But in terms of game design they're really doing not much different since they became mainstream. TERA was one of the few to actually try to break the mold, but fell flat because outside of its battle system, it was extremely basic as usual.

This means what? Oh right, nothing.

It means from experience it's easy to know when SE has and has not used "PS2 limitations" largely as an excuse. It didn't become a popular saying for no reason, after all.

If I'm understanding correctly and the question is why more PC only MMO developers don't use the full capability of a PC's power to branch out designs and create more unique systems /styles across different games, then the answer has little to do with system specs and more to do with investors.

That's exactly my point - Limitations mean truly little when MMOs as is doesn't really "deviate" to begin with, so anything that is held back would be so minor that it's more: "I'd like this so I'm disappointed" than "this game will cease to function!", like XI for example, more inventory is great, and ironically, it has more active inventory slots than XIV does (80*4 = 320 mean while XIV has 100 but it's also an icon based system but the tabs are there to allocate memory but there's so much gear in XI even that isn't enough.) but the PS2 didn't hold it back to the point it was never able to run for 12 years and have numerous expansions and continued updates that introduces stuff you'd normally see introduced in an expansion.

1.0 was a spectacular example of this sadly as 2.0's success can largely be attributed to incorporating systems and ideas we've seen in other modern MMOs while forgoing many of the unique (but failed) ideas that 1.0 tried to run with.

To be fair to 1.0 though, they made too many core mistakes that made it that much worse - Pushing it out long before it was ready, using an engine no where near suited to running MMORPGs and so on. Which is why 1.23 was seen as "if the game started like this, it would have been amazing, but there's still the problem of the engine." Heck, a majority of ARR's systems are still from 1.0 - 1.23 but toned down or redesigned to fit the 'standard.' So sadly, 1.0 was just one of those misfortunate titles, it wasn't really "innovation" that killed it, it was simply..not ready. If they did it from the get go on a unique engine (like they did for XI and ARR) things probably would have been different.

It's in expanding on those features that they aren't held back

This, too is my point. A lot of devs simply stick with "what works" and not really try to go above and beyond even though they have the potential, yet SE shown, even with limitations, they would at least try to. For example with XI, Monstrosity, Nyzul (Assault system), Fracture, Moblin Maze and such can be deemed "basic" systems on paper, yet no other MMO has really attempted to do some of what they did, yet despite "console limitations", they at least tried and succeeded but it had its own set of problems (e.g too great of an RNG on good rewards.)

[Ryel]

Indeed, compatibility is great - But in terms of game design they're really doing not much different since they became mainstream. TERA was one of the few to actually try to break the mold, but fell flat because outside of its battle system, it was extremely basic as usual.

unfortunately i think the argument you're trying to make here is separate subject all together.

If I'm understanding correctly and the question is why more PC only MMO developers don't use the full capability of a PC's power to branch out designs and create more unique systems /styles across different games, then the answer has little to do with system specs and more to do with investors.

MMOs are a very risky investment so more devs are willing to attempt to emulate or innovate on things they have seen work in other titles rather than risk (in most cases) millions of dollars on something new and having it fail.

1.0 was a spectacular example of this sadly as 2.0's success can largely be attributed to incorporating systems and ideas we've seen in other modern MMOs while forgoing many of the unique (but failed) ideas that 1.0 tried to run with.

For most PC games this doesn't mean the base of those games suffer however, even if the elements are similar or the systems familiar they put the effort into making them look better or perform better (large scale environments, eye candy, jumping puzzles, world bosses, etc) It's in expanding on those features that they aren't held back

[Ryel]

That's exactly my point - Limitations mean truly little when MMOs as is doesn't really "deviate" to begin with, so anything that is held back would be so minor that it's more: "I'd like this so I'm disappointed" than "this game will cease to function!", like XI for example, more inventory is great, and ironically, it has more active inventory slots than XIV does (80*4 = 320 mean while XIV has 100 but it's also an icon based system but the tabs are there to allocate memory but there's so much gear in XI even that isn't enough.) but the PS2 didn't hold it back to the point it was never able to run for 12 years and have numerous expansions and continued updates that introduces stuff you'd normally see introduced in an expansion.

If we're comparing FFXI still, XI got more mileage out of the Ps2 at the time because not only was it released much closer to the beginning of the Ps2's lifecycle (Ps2 release was 2000) so it had time to grow with it, but most of the core systems were initially designed for the Ps2 first and then ported over to windows.

That being said, they did have many memory limitations that hurt them later on as the world stepped into the modern MMO. WoW was able to go back and redesign / remodel entire zones as part of their storyline and even now as old as the game is they're STILL going back to overhaul the character models when their next expansion releases.

There is a large difference between a game surviving for 12 years and thriving for 12 years.

To be fair to 1.0 though, they made too many core mistakes that made it that much worse - Pushing it out long before it was ready, using an engine no where near suited to running MMORPGs and so on. Which is why 1.23 was seen as "if the game started like this, it would have been amazing, but there's still the problem of the engine." Heck, a majority of ARR's systems are still from 1.0 - 1.23 but toned down or redesigned to fit the 'standard.' So sadly, 1.0 was just one of those misfortunate titles, it wasn't really "innovation" that killed it, it was simply..not ready. If they did it from the get go on a unique engine (like they did for XI and ARR) things probably would have been different.

And yet even with it's poor engine we had higher res textures, better CS rendering, and a much larger (yet far from perfect) zoneless world which was much closer to the standard modern MMOs have set.

Engine aside, Tanaka repeatedly expressed concerns regarding finding ways to make the game work with the memory limits posed by the Ps3 and this was 3-4 years ago, in the Ps3's prime.

FFXIV isn't even the only MMO unique to this situation as DC Universe Online (another cross PC/Ps3 MMO) has been running into a similar issue when it comes to moving the game forward and dealing with the Ps3's 8 year old outdated hardware limitations.

This, too is my point. A lot of devs simply stick with "what works" and not really try to go above and beyond even though they have the potential, yet SE shown, even with limitations, they would at least try to. For example with XI, Monstrosity, Nyzul (Assault system), Fracture, Moblin Maze and such can be deemed "basic" systems on paper, yet no other MMO has really attempted to do some of what they did, yet despite "console limitations", they at least tried and succeeded but it had its own set of problems (e.g too great of an RNG on good rewards.)

You will never get an argument out of me when it comes to saying that FFXI did some amazing and innovative things while working with the framework that the Ps2 gave them.

There were many pieces of content that were created in XI's prime that i have still yet to find an equal for in other games, many of which would actually do a world of good for the system that ARR has created.

ZNMs, Salvage (without the drop rates obviously), Dynamis, Limbus, Sky/Sea, BCNMs, ENMs, Moblin Maze Mongers, Chocobo Breeding / Digging, Nyzul, Assault, Besieged and Campaign were all great things that could be tweaked / made to work here with great effect.

However this doesn't mean that a lot of those systems couldn't have been better / greater if they didn't have to work within the limitations of the Ps2