Possible Paladin Rework...

[Jubez187]

changing Shield Swipe to mini-overpower with reduced potency should balance PLD and WAR lil bit in AoE situations

IMO shield swipe is fine. But the fact NOTHING of threat can be pacified is not. Imagine popping bulwark at the right time to get a pacify to negate some of Ifrit EX's Supp stacks? That would be a fun gameplay paradigm.

[Synestra]

IMO shield swipe is fine. But the fact NOTHING of threat can be pacified is not. Imagine popping bulwark at the right time to get a pacify to negate some of Ifrit EX's Supp stacks? That would be a fun gameplay paradigm.

Aye it is fine as an TP "builder"/damage skill but i just would like to have some AoE besides SoC even if it does puny damage ;_; And i actually use that bulwark+swipe combo on Diabolos, so pacify working on raid bosses/primals would be pretty damn awesome.

[Nicole_Valkyrie]

The thing is that you don't need that much of TP. When you are tanking you almost just need MP to flash, shield lob and provoke. The combo helps aggro but as PLD you almost don't need it, just when it comes to some bosses and to keep the aggro. As a tank your purpose is to pull and keep anemies turned to you and the "MP combo" is almost the only thing you need when pulling a lot of enemies at the same time in order to keep your MP healthy to flash. But it's true that, what I've seen is that when a PLD and a warrior are tanking together it seems difficult to keep the aggro for ourselves, as PLD. The Shield Oath HELPS A LOT too as to keep the aggro for you and to increase your defense and life keeping

[Surian]

Right now it's very anoying or difficult to keep hate on groups of monsters with just flash.
The weak 100 potency Circle of Scorn doesnt do enough damage or pulls nearly enough (Area of Effect) hate to actively contribute to our skill set either.

I suggest adding an "Additional Effect: Increases Enmity" to Circle of Scorn.

We could use a good amount of FFXIV 1.0 skills reinstated to us, especially:

Circle Slash - Spin your weapon fiercely, dealing slashing damage to nearby targets.

Luminous Spire - Imbue your blade with brilliance, dealing astral damage and reducing the target's magic defense. Blinds other nearby enemies.


But in other quality-of-life improvements, we could use the following ones as well in addition to what was mentioned above:

Red Lotus - Invoke the power of flame and strike, dealing fire damage.

Howling Vortex - Sound a haunting howl with your weapon, dealing slashing damage and temporarily lengthening the target's cast times.

Spinstroke - Feint and then strike, dealing slashing damage to the target. Increases attack power when the target is not engaging you.

Phalanx - Strike from behind the safety of your shield, dealing slashing damage and increasing enmity. Can only be executed following a block.

Still Precision - Steady yourself, increasing accuracy and reducing evasion.

Deflection - Focus on your shield arm, increasing defense against frontal attacks and negating a portion of blocked damage.

On top of all that;

I feel Paladin could use a slight increase in maximum HP as well to rival the +25% HP a Warrior has over us while they are equal/better in all other aspects since their buff.
Even a minor +10% HP would make us feel less inferior.

[reckless76]

Riot blade should be AoE. A cone in front of you. I mean a riot takes many people to work, sounds like riot blade could be riot suppression..
But seriously, it would help a lot with group pulls. Flash spam, and riot blade to keep up mp and maintain a little aggro on everything when not flashing.
Also agree about the enmity modifier on circle of scorn. It feels like the skill should have that, and I often forget that it in fact doesn't.

[Daniolaut]

Please please please Square'Enix take note of this thread and make PLD fun/even with WAR.

I 'main-ed' PLD from 2.0 to 2.2. Upon 2.3 i 'main-ed' all 9 jobs. I found a new static that was looking for a warrior and i picked the job up.

Since playing warrior i see that warrior can not only do what PLD could do before warrior was reworked but since the rework it can now do much much more.

Warrior's Overpower is ... well way overpowered compared to PLD's flash.

I personally hate flash. The animation is horrid, and the enmity generation is useless until shield oath and even with shield oath its still a joke compared to overpower.

So not only does flash not generate as much threat as overpower it also doesnt deal damage. So here WAR doubles over PLD in aoe. If flash dealt twice the enmity that it currently does then it would match up to war and wouldnt need to be spammed and would be an effective skill.

Circle of Scorn, Cover, and Shield Swipe all really need attention. I dont know how they can make these skills more useful without totally reworking them.

Shield Swipe, nearly no enemies outside of trash mobs are affected by pacification, and even trash mobs in the world only take a 6s pacification which is the time between one weapon skill to another anyway so the 6s pacification is 100% useless imo.

Cover, i've only found minor use for it in brayflox speed runs, on the second pull and the second boss.. only.. in the entire game. Thats sad imo.

Circle of Scorn is just not very good either. Its usefull since its off the GCD but thats probably the only nice thing about it aside from its actually really nice animation. I'm sure they, since SE doesnt want PLD's to deal massive damage, could cause it to deal some actual useful debuff such as bind..... actually that would make it next to perfect if it could bind.


Some ways to make PLD more interesting: (kinda repeating just whats been said.)

Shield Swipe: To work much like blood letter, Be off the GCD, deal 210 potency and either 1: have real enemies be affected by pacification or 2: increase enmity or some other useful effect.

FlashOut of combo after riot blade no blind affect and its normal enmity gain. In combo after riot blade cause blind and deal double enmity. (this combo is desperately needed imo for low level pld's/gld's who dont have shield oath.)

Circle of ScornAddtional Effect: Binds enemy.

Shield Bash Should not interrupt combos.

Shield/Sword OathYes please take them off the GCD or remove the MP cost.. one of the two. Its very silly to have both on the GCD and cost so much.

PLD generates more single target enmity than a warrior.

I play both PLD and WAR and this is just not true.

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

[Kitru]

If flash dealt twice the enmity that it currently does then it would match up to war and wouldnt need to be spammed and would be an effective skill.

Flash generates roughly 480 ePot per use. Overpower is 600. Flash is basically free; Overpower costs an arm and a leg.

The enmity generation on Flash is fine. The only issue PLD has is low AoE damage.

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

lolnope. I suggest you actually do some math (or, hell, even check against an equally geared PLD) before making bad conjecture that the entire community already knows is wrong.

5 stack Wrath is ~5% increased damage (slightly less actually), and Defiance is a 25% damage penalty, which ends up reducing damage to 78.75%. Berserk is 40% for 20 seconds every 90 seconds with 5 seconds of no special attack damage (basically -66%), which is only a ~5.17% increase in damage over time. The only off-GCD attack WAR has is Brutal Swing, for 100 pot every 20.

As such, just doing BB spam and using Berserk on CD, a WAR is going to manage 1345.84 ePot/GCD over time (2 * .75 * 1.05 * 1.0517 * (83.33 + (150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) / 3 + 100 / 8))).

Shield Oath is a 20% reduction in damage dealt, FoF is 30% for 30 secs every 90 secs for a 10% increase to total damage, and CoS and SW are both off-GCDs that provide 25 pot/GCD.

As such, with RoH spam and FoF/SW/CoS on CD, a PLD will manage 1437.33 epot/GCD (2 * .8 * 1.1 * (83.33 + 25 + 25 + (150 + 200 * 3 + 260 * 5) / 3)).

The only way that a WAR generates more enmity than a PLD is if they use their CDs properly (optimal UBIR) and are using the SE>BB>BB high enmity rotation. In every other case, WAR is going to generate less.

[SirTaint]

PLDsbiggest flaw is DPS while MTing (in shield oath). WAR just crushes PLD while in their respective tanking stances.

[Giantbane]

I play both PLD and WAR and this is just not true.

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

Defiance is -25%, Shield Oath is -20%, crit can't make up for that. PLD also has much strong off GCD moves that should be included in base threat generated. EDIT: Kitru beat me to it

Kitru corrected me earlier, the WAR *can* generate more threat. But the WAR pulls ahead due to the ability to stack buffs and generate an insane amount of threat during unchained, berserk & internal release.

It should be noted that in order to generate max threat, the WAR needs to be limiting which debuffs it applies. SP>BB>BB will mean you drop SP for a few seconds per rotation. SP>BB means 100% up time on SP, but you generate much less threat. Both of those means losing the SE debuff entirely. SE>BB for 100% up time on SE or SE>BB>BB for max threat are other options, but the result is everyone taking more damage since you aren't maintaining the SP debuff. BB spam is only for terrible WARs that would be better off playing PLD. PLD is able to maintain threat and the halone debuff in one combo. No trade off, so you get max threat and max debuff all the time no matter what.

Either way, it makes no difference whatsoever. Both classes can generate so much more threat than any other class you should need to worry about (save a WHM that spams medica 2 all day and can't find his shroud button), that it's sort of a moot point. As long as you hold threat, you don't get any bonus points for holding 10% more threat than the other guy.

And it wasn't the real point I was trying to make. The imbalance is AoE threat and damage, where the PLD is currently thoroughly outclassed by the WAR in both areas. PLD could really use some love there.

[Kitru]

And it wasn't the real point I was trying to make. The imbalance is AoE threat and damage, where the PLD is currently thoroughly outclassed by the WAR in both areas. PLD could really use some love there.

PLD isn't really outclassed by WAR for AoE threat. AoE damage, definitely, but not threat (PLD has worse burst AoE enmity, but, over time, it's basically a wash; and PLD can actually maintain AoE enmity for longer than to Flashes' negligible cost). Flash is weaker than either SC or Overpower on a per use basis, but, as has been said over and over and over again, Flash is basically free: it costs MP rather than TP, and it doesn't even cost that much MP (you can spam 9-10 Flashes before you run out of mp and it will have no effect upon your ST rotation viability whatsoever). The lower effectiveness of Flash on a per use basis is the price you pay for having an AoE enmity generator that you can spam with no concern at all.

It's getting kind of old to see PLDs whinging on about Flash and about how amazing Overpower is when they're completely ignoring the fact that Overpower is expensive as hell which is *why* it's so strong.