Possible Paladin Rework...

[Thistledown]

Great. Now I really want to level GLD - -

[Cetonis]

Paladin is a fun class that has a lot of great tools and can use almost all of its skills effectively... in 4 man dungeons. However, in most 8 man content, Paladin loses a lot of buttons. I think that that, combined paladin having a lot of abilities that either have the same basic function (for example, Rampart/Bulwark/Sentinel/Foresight all reduce damage) or have limited usefulness, make the job fall behind in some areas. Paladin functions well as a tank, and it doesn't need a complete overhaul, but I think a few small changes would make it a lot more fun to play. Abilities I think could use a second look are:

Flash - loses blind effect in 8 man content (with a few exceptions).
Shield Swipe - loses Pacify effect in 8 man content (again, with exceptions), and doesn't work on a lot of 4 man stuff either. The damage increase from using the skill is a bit underwhelming. When you consider that this WS is one of the few "reaction" abilities in the game, it seems really lacking.
Shield Bash - Can't stun most stuff in 8 man. Other class stuns are off-gcd extra attacks. While I'd like to keep Bash on-gcd, I think this skill could be used creatively
Bulwark - The 60% block rate increase for this skill seems like it was just arbitrarily decided. Defensive cooldowns need to be reliable to deal with the big attacks in this game (Flatten, Ravensbeak, Death Sentence).
Tempered Will - Good, but too situation-dependent.
Awareness - This skill has always been bad. Final Coil and Shiva have abilities that were designed to make you want to use it, but it's still pretty bad. Also, it takes up a trait slot.
Riot Blade - Paladin's MP basically goes to three sources: Oaths, Stoneskin, and Flash. Of the three, really only Stoneskin should be done often enough in 8 man content to warrant an MP regen ability. Paladin is the only melee class with the ability to regenerate its own MP, but it doesn't even really use it. This is a huge wasted opportunity, IMO. Warrior has Wrath, paladin should have MP.


This is all just spitballing, and I don't expect anything even remotely like this to be implemented, but I'd like to see stuff along the lines of:

Shield Swipe allowing you to ignore the Shield Oath penalty for a short time (like 1-2 GCDs) after use.
The ability to use Shield Bash for extra damage in some way, with the limiting factor being its extreme TP cost.
Tempered Will getting a greatly reduced cooldown, or granting immunity to bind/heavy for the duration
Bulwark being more reliable and on a much shorter cooldown. Maybe something like 100% block rate for one attack on a 45s-1m cooldown.
More reasons to use MP in general. Riot Blade should be used regularly in our rotation. Alternatively - and this is a straight up nerf - move the STR debuff to Riot Blade.

Right now paladin's biggest weakness is damage dealt while tanking, and changes like those might help address it somewhat, while also making the class more interactive. Anyway, this is all pie-in-the-sky stuff, but with the expansion coming I do think it's important to point out areas where classes can be improved when it comes to core gameplay. Even if paladin ends up underpowered (or overpowered, or just right) in the expansion, I'd really like to be able to use more of my buttons in high end content.

Lots of good points here.

Aside from the lack of skill variety, one of my larger gripes is that the gain in potency you get by using Shield Swipe is a borderline joke.

The average potency of your core combo is 203, and Swipe lets you trade one of those GCDs off for... 210? I know, every little bit helps, and I know, TP savings, but it just feels so unrewarding when it's one of the rare opportunities to play PLD "better" damage-wise.

Because more random ideas are always fun, what might hit multiple bases with only a couple changes might be:

- Shield Swipe reimagined as a "magic" attack that costs MP (enough to make you want to weave in Riot Blade sometimes in long fights)
- Shield Oath penalty only applies to autoattacks and weaponskills (i.e. not Spirits, Scorn or new Swipe)

Like most things here it's not gonna happen because reasons, but yeah.

[Synestra]

Oaths off the GCD. Manacost could and should stay, but the Oath dancing would add in itself a lot.

This is what i have been wanting to see aswell, just make it work like NiN's venoms(5s recast while being OGCD). SS could use some tweaking in pve as its currently pretty powerful in pvp but not super useful in pve, Riot could also use some kind of combo or then we simply need more skills that uses mana in general.

[TouchandFeel]

Basically, any changes PLD would get I feel should relate somehow to our shield. Because THAT is what makes us Paladins really

I'm in agreement, at least conceptually.
I think that PLD should still get that final combo attack to come off riot blade and that a new sword attack or two is warranted with the increased level cap coming in the expansion.
However, moving forward I would really like to see SE emphasize the difference between PLD and WAR by building on stylistic precedents already put somewhat in place.
Plainly I would like them to make it more so that WAR defends by attacking (good example being Inner Beast) and PLD attacks by defending (sort of like shield swipe, but your Porcupine idea would be a better example) and also that WAR does more spread out heavy hits, while PLD does smaller more frequent hits. These differences are already somewhat there, but if they were emphasized more in an intelligent and balanced way I feel that it could really make the tanks feel and play in their own satisfyingly unique way.

[Ceodore]

I'm really giggling at all the comparisons of Paladins to Warriors and "Who's the better tank?" Let's be straight forward here. A great tank keeps agro on enemies from the rest of his party and takes hits to the face that others would die from while smiling their pretty little broken teeth the whole time. BOTH tanks in this game do this pretty well. Now, if you want to get technical, let's get technical. Warrior has versatility to both tank and DPS rather well. Paladins don't, but last I checked, tanks are meant to take a punch to the face and live, not return the punch. Warriors can parry. So can paladins, and the difference between their parries are almost non-existent. Yes, Warriors have a bit more strength, making their parry a little stronger, but still, almost non-existent.

Let's look at the buffs. Warriors get Defiance, +25% HP (This aspect of this buff is drastically overstated) and +20% healing received (This aspect of the buff is the only one that REALLY matters). As my partner has pointed out to me before (Since I play both tanks and do enjoy them both to an extent), an increase in healing received is what's called an after the fact buff. Meaning, it doesn't matter until after you take a fist to the face. So yes, while a Warrior gets more HP and takes more healing, their actual ease of survivability is actually overstated. Now Paladins get the typical reduction in damage buff... -20% damage. There are great things and bad things about this buff. First, the bad... diminishing returns. As you increase your defense, you decrease the damage you take, thus decreasing how much damage gets mitigated by Shield Oath. Yeah, not a big deal, but I have to find a fault or someone might assume I'm playing favorites. Now, the great things are just plain obvious, -20% damage from all sources. By all sources, this isn't limited to just physical damage, or magical damage, or just single hits, or just damage over time. No, this means it effects everything. So, overall, almost equal to Defiance (While +25% HP is an overstated buff, it's still something). Mind you, this is ignoring the fact that +20% healing received is what is known as an after the fact buff, I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume you are doing what you can already to mitigate damage in other ways such as avoiding heavy hitting AOEs and wipe mechanics. I will assume you should give the same benefit of the doubt that a paladin will do the same thing. We must also conclude that that your healer is doing their job. So They're almost equivalent, with Defiance being slightly better with the HP pool increase.

Now that we have gotten the whole "This toggle is better than that toggle" talk out of the way, let's look at what really matters, the class itself and the tools it has available to use. I'm going to start with Paladins. Hallowed Ground - Let's just stop for a moment right here. Is this really a competition anymore? Negates ALL damage except for wipe mechanics... come on. And for 10 seconds? I mean, I suppose you can throw out Holmgang for Warriors, but can you really even consider it a fair fight between the skills? Holmgang may mean that you can't fall below 1 HP, but it only lasts 6 seconds, and if you're throwing this skill out because the healing isn't enough, you're as good as dead anyways after the 6 seconds are up. With Hallowed Ground, that's 10 seconds of no damage, none at all. Even if you're a warrior and you're using Holmgang to save you, if the healing isn't enough, it's not going to bring you back to full in 6 seconds. It isn't going to save you at all. So right here, I have to draw a point. For true disasters, I mean the real disasters of all hell is breaking loose, Paladin takes the cake with crumbs to spare. Nothing saves a fight like Hallowed Ground. Long Cooldown or not, this skill is like a reset button. Throw it out when you're about to die, and the healers can rocket your HP back to full with 3 or 4 casts. When it drops again, it's like standing back up for round two and a second chance. Holmgang just doesn't compare.

So, to be a good sport, I'll go through the rest of the cooldown skills that are unique to each class, then after, I'll bring in the cross class abilities. Rampart, 20% reduction in damage from (once again) all sources. Yeah, its effectiveness gets a little reduced due to Shield Oath, but it has really good up time for such a strong skill. 20 seconds of duration for a 90 second cool down is actually quite incredible when compared to the countless durability buffing skills seen in dozens of other MMOs. Awareness... ehh... not entirely sure how effective this skill REALLY is, but it's something. Some people say NO crits, some sites just say a reduction in the likelihood of receiving a critical hit. I'm not sure, so I can't speculate. Sentinel... Okay, this is just awesome. First, Paladins get 10 seconds of no damage, then they get 10 seconds of what might as well be half damage? (effectively 50% reduced damage with Shield Oath) I don't know if this is even fair. Tempered Will... I know, I know, not a survivability skill, but isn't it? Draw in and Knockback immunity. Many fights have mechanics that cause these effect... let me think for a moment... Titan Extreme, Twintania, Leviathan Extreme, just to name three that these effects will cause instant death if not negated in an emergency. Bulwark... I'm going to ignore this one for now, as it's much more important for a later point.

So warriors get Inner Beast (I consider this a cooldown since you can't spam it due to wrath being required). Now I have to give some credit here where credit is definitely due. This skill is great. Only on Global Cooldown, and a reduction of 20% damage taken. Pretty nice. It's just too bad that it's balanced by the cooldown of Infuriate (which I usually see get used on Steel Cyclone anyways, cause you know, TP regeneration sucks) and Wrath generation, which usually takes about 2 or 3 full combo cycles to generate enough. So, it's 6 seconds of 20% reduction on effectively a cooldown of about 15-20 seconds (depending on your skill speed) Plus it heals. Pretty good. This skill alone really does boost the prospects of Warriors. Not to mention, if your timing is right, this skill really shines (i.e. Titan Mountain Busters). Holmgang... I'm not going into this one again. Vengence, what can I say about Vengence? It's balanced. 30% reduced damage, less than Sentinel, but with 5 more seconds of duration on a lower cooldown, and with its effectiveness being the full 30% (since Sentinel loses a little to Shield Oath) it's an all around great skill. Thrill of Battle... Yeah, this is nice and all, but it's really just flash in the pan. If your 25% flat increase isn't good enough, then this probably won't be either. But hey, your HP cleared 15k for all of about 20 seconds. Not that it really matters if your healing isn't good enough anyways. This is where the unique cooldowns end for warrior. Not bad, a pretty good fight, but as far as survivability goes, they are only just decent really.

So let's move onto the shared abilities and the differences between them when used by either class. Convalescence - Paladins get 30% healing increase for 20 seconds, Warriors get 20%, which I must point out, is not actually 20%, it's a little bit more than that, since unlike damage reduction skills, which have diminishing returns, healing increasing skills have increasing returns. However, it's still not going to be up to 30% increase. It's more like 23, 24%. Still, it's something. Bloodbath - Do I really have to take this skill seriously? Okay, Paladins get 15 seconds of 25% leech, warriors get 30 seconds... oh come on! This skill is only marginally better than Thrill of Battle! Warriors benefit more from it than a paladin due to higher damage output and more damaging aoes, but its effect is hardly grand given the low damage both classes do compared to others. Foresight... now we're talking. Once again, this is a skill with both good and bad qualities. First, the difference between paladins and warriors. The difference is the cooldown. Paladins have a 120 second cooldown, warriors have a 90 second cooldown, so props go to warriors. Now, for both classes, this skill ONLY (I mean ONLY) effects physical defense. This skill gets confused for a damage mitigation skill sometimes. It isn't. It's a defense boost. Meaning its effect is based on your defense stat. The higher your defense stat is, the more effect this skill has. At lower item levels, it's not as big of a deal as at higher item levels. However, all around, it's a pretty good skill, for both classes. Warriors just have a better up time.

So it's time for me to draw a conclusion from the facts stated above. While I am sure the debate between paladins and warriors will continue, I want to state this much: I am only focusing on survivability, I have already stated above that Warriors have more damage capability. Paladins have just as many cooldowns at their disposal as warriors, most of which have a stronger mitigation bonused than Warriors. Furthermore, the toggles they get are essentially equal, with the benefit of warriors being slightly better due to HP increase, which anyone with half a brain could see why that is hardly anything to scream about (See Thrill of Battle). This isn't to say that warriors cooldowns aren't strong, especially with Inner Beast. Just that their survivability is not the same as a Paladin, despite the hype against such a statement.

Now, I'm going to bring up another point I ignored a little while ago with Bulwark. Bulwark increases block rate by 60% and lasts 15 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown. This... this is B-E-A-UTIFUL! Paladins with a decent shield will find they almost consistently will block 90% of attacks during the duration of this skill, and with a decent shield, will see anywhere from 20-30% reduction in damage taken (I'm a little bit above 30%, but let's not split hairs). This skill brings me to my next point, blocking. So many people ignore the added fact that Paladins have a shield, while Warriors do not. Meaning, while both warriors and paladins can parry, ONLY Paladins can block. Soo... let's re-evaluate things here. Paladins not only have more damage reduction cooldowns (Rampart, Sentinel, Hallowed Ground, Foresight to Warrior's Inner Beast, Foresight, and Vengence) as well as better cooldowns that increase survivability (by survivability, I mean buffs that do things other than increase defense or lower damage - Awareness (lol), Bulwark, Convalescence, Bloodbath (lol) to Warriors Thrill of Battle (lol), Bloodbath (lol), Convalescence, and Holmgang (LOL!)) but they also parry and block while warriors only parry. I'm sorry, but the battle of who makes it look too easy for tanking goes to Paladins. Since both classes can hold aggro, have toggles that are for all real intensive purposes the same, the winner really is the class with more and/or stronger cooldowns, as well as more ways to naturally mitigate damage (Warriors only Parry and Paladins Parry and Block).

Now, the debate over who is the better DPS goes to Warriors hands down, so congratulations Warriors, you can do more damage even though you're a tank. That's great, for what it's worth. As far as Crowd Controlling... Paladins win hands down. Warriors have one stun, with a cooldown of 20 seconds and duration of 5 seconds. Paladins have a stun on global cooldown with a base duration of 6 seconds, plus a Pacification skill with a base duration of 6 seconds (have to mention though that it's only able to be used after a block, so there is a handicap to it). So another important trait of tanking, crowd control really goes to the paladin. Any paladin who knows what they are doing won't be hindered by the fact that Shield Bash can't be used between skills, so this aspect is null in point.

So, Lesbehonest... I am really kicking a dead horse at this point. Despite my points above, I play both warrior and paladin. Certain aspects of the game and certain fights do favor one class over the other. However, in general, I do play Paladin, for reasons that both include and are besides the facts above. Would I like to see a rework of the class? Definitely, I'd love to be a better tank, dps and crowd controller than a warrior. However, do I see it as balanced? Hell no. Warriors have their benefits in certain aspects of the game where their lowered survivability doesn't matter, and their higher DPS is greatly appreciated. As things are, they are fairly well balanced. As someone who (quite obviously) favors Paladins, I understand that because my dps isn't as good, when it comes to tanking a single target, I may lose aggro to a warrior. That doesn't bother me, since I only lost aggro to a tank, not a dps or a healer. As long as that warrior can make the fight go smooth enough for a win, then I'll be just fine with them spamming butcher's block combos all they want.

[Alphras]

Did you really see the need to write such a wall of text? I don't see many people reading it.

You really need to get into your head that 20% damage reduction is interchangeable with the combination of 25% more hp and 25% more healing. It is exactly the same effect. So statements like "Defiance being slightly better with the HP pool increase" are just not correct.

[Sokerimuro]

Lotsastuff.

I read through all that, just a heads up.

At least for me this thread is not so much about the balance between the two tanking classes, which I deem is very good at the moment, but rather the layout of the Paladin class as opposed to the Warrior class. In terms of options, interactions etc.. I think Paladins have it better in terms of mitigation than Warriors when it comes to physical damage (which is in the end actually true from calculation viewpoint) and Warriors conversely deal better with magic damage and do more damage as a tank. And to get it out of the way, yes tank DPS matters a whole lot! Many of the groups progressing in Final Coil make fine adjustments to the tank gear of OT and even MT, simply to squeeze a bit more damage out over the course of the fight to meet the DPS checks. Anyways without trailing away too much, I personally like the design that Paladin deals little damage and takes a lot of beating, Vanilla shield tank style.

I don't really want the class to deal more damage, what I personally wish to see is the possibility to "Oath dance" better than what it currently is, and some more use for the Shield Swipe skill. Oaths already have a cost in terms of mana as opposed to most of the similar abilities of other classes. To add on top of that the fact that Oaths are on GCD AND break our combo if used. Even the small QoL change of allowing us to switch between Oaths without it breaking our combo would go a long way. Giving the possibility to actually use them off-GCD would be truly neat, with the manacost taking care of any "spammability" issues that could arise.

And Shield Swipe, oh the Shield Swipe. We are a tank with a shield, traditionally this style would find offensive uses for that blocking block, and we DO have skills for that in their very own unique respects. Shame is Swipe is pretty moot as it stands, and I dare say quite useless in proper content. Shield Bash on the other hand is awesome and I state here once and for all, nothing on that skill should change. It is Paladin's unique niché, tactical stunning on demand. Being on GCD and breaking our combo are the big balancing factors here.

And to finally ask it out, why so many people disregard Awareness? That skill is good. Sure you do not see it as straight mitigation like other of our tools, but already there is a specific encounter in the game that benefits a great deal from Awareness. To add on top of that, it is a very good AoE tanking cooldown! By itself not so fancy, but combined with something like Foresight we have a very durable AoE tanking 20 seconds going on. And why is this? Spikes kill tanks. Simple as that. Damage by itself does not, uncontrollable spiky damage does. When making large pulls (speedruns etc.) or simply having to tank 3 mobs that hit hard, the ability to negate critical hits is huge. Singular criticals we eat all the time, it is part of the design, but criticals in multiples are what Awareness is truly for, and shines in. When pulling larger packs there is always the chance that for example 8 out of the 12 mobs decide to crit at the same time. This will often kill the tank.

And to state it yet, yes all our damage mitigation cooldowns come to work with large pulls, that much is granted, but for example Awareness + Convalescence form a very solid CD pair, whereas Convalescence alone does not necessarily mean easier time for the healer.

Peace out.

[Ragology]

Did you really see the need to write such a wall of text? I don't see many people reading it.

You really need to get into your head that 20% damage reduction is interchangeable with the combination of 25% more hp and 25% more healing. It is exactly the same effect. So statements like "Defiance being slightly better with the HP pool increase" are just not correct.

You are correct Alphras.

For example lets say that there are two tanks, both with 40 HP. Have one tank be a PLD and the other a WAR.

The WAR ends up having 50 HP ( that's 25% more than PLD.)

Both tanks are shot with an arrow that does 10 damage.

The WAR takes all 10 damage each time she is attacked. She will be defeated in 5 hits. (10 x 5 = 50)

The PLD only take 8 damage from each hit ( because of their 20% reduction bonus) but since they have 40 health, they will also fall in 5 hits ( 8 x 5 = 40)

Paladins require less healing to top off (I read somewhere that it was a small %,) and so warriors self healing is in place to offset that.

Both tanks hold hate just fine, so after this it boils down to defensive cooldowns. Between vengeance and inner beast, WAR should almost always have something ready in time for the big hits. Rage of Halone seems to reduce strength while Storms path reduces all damage, so maybe that's supposed to make up for Foresight's shortcomings in the magic defense department.

The tanks seem super close to me. Just gotta do something about Holmgang. I think its low cooldown is a perk. I'd be 100% happier if it had the range of provoke and if less enemies were immune to its snare though.

[Donjo]

And to get it out of the way, yes tank DPS matters a whole lot! Many of the groups progressing in Final Coil make fine adjustments to the tank gear of OT and even MT, simply to squeeze a bit more damage out over the course of the fight to meet the DPS checks.

There's a bit of a caveat to that, I think. Tank DPS is appearing to matter a lot for T11-13 because these are groups who are trying to progress through the Final Coil at lower gear levels than the content is technically tuned at. I think that if all of the DPS had i120 weapons, the Tanks likely wouldn't have to sacrifice as much mitigation to contribute more than they usually do. As the slower progressing groups up their ratios of Poetics gear, the DPS checks will ease off further. Once everyone's average gear level is between 120 and 130, Tanks will probably be able to go full mitigation again if they want without rendering the fights unwinnable.

[TouchandFeel]

so congratulations Warriors, you can do more damage even though you're a tank.

If something is dead, it can't hurt you or your teammates, so yeah it is important.

So many people ignore the added fact that Paladins have a shield, while Warriors do not.

Just like you are sort of glossing over WAR self-heals. PLD gets a shield and WAR gets self-heals, they are two niche abilities that add some decent survivability in different ways.

In the end, as I feel has been pretty well established at this point, the survivability of the two tanks is pretty much equal, with Holmgang being the only real exception.