DIP, DUCK, DIVE, DODGE!

[kukurumei]

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

[Firon]

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

I agree with you, But i think action games in general have Bad A.I.

You know whats funny tho Fucking perfect dark on N64 has better A.I than 90% of these new era games that's kinda sad when a N64 game has better A.I then the modern C.O.D LOLz.

[kukurumei]

I agree with you, But i think action games in general have Bad A.I.

Action games AIs vary, Bosses have seriously upped AI, and multi level scenarios, while cannon folder may have an AI that's as simple as "move towards target and swing) Not to mention for $60, you're probably about 12hrs of gaming and maybe repeat on average 5 times.

MMO AIs are seriously one dimensional, even bosses. It's not worth the effort to design complicated AIs in MMOs due to the shear size you have to populate.

[Dyne]

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

Not exactly, figuring things out is the best part. Just because one person figures out the possible perfect strategy to beat something does not mean everybody knows the perfect strategy. You have to do a linkshell huddle on the strategy and coordinate everyone so they can pull everything perfectly, and if things go bad, you improvise. Before zerging methods were invented in ffxi, and you guys were the first ones to be fighting certain bosses or bcnms, sometimes it could possibly take you 5-10 tries before you finally beat it, and that doesn't always guarantee a win the next several times you do it because someone in your party could mess up as well by not paying attention and not reacting fast enough.

I can't say the same for the other MMOs, well the rest are WoW clones, and you just have to attack, and if you are a healer, you know how to heal, you are a great player.

[kukurumei]

Not exactly, figuring things out is the best part. Just because one person figures out the possible perfect strategy to beat something does not mean everybody knows the perfect strategy. You have to do a linkshell huddle on the strategy and coordinate everyone so they can pull everything perfectly, and if things go bad, you improvise. Before zerging methods were invented in ffxi, and you guys were the first ones to be fighting certain bosses or bcnms, sometimes it could possibly take you 5-10 tries before you finally beat it, and that doesn't always guarantee a win the next several times you do it because someone in your party could mess up as well by not paying attention and not reacting fast enough.

I can't say the same for the other MMOs, well the rest are WoW clones, and you just have to attack, and if you are a healer, you know how to heal, you are a great player.

This is an MMO, subscription based as well. 5-10 tries? You're talking about 500-1000 repetitions. And it's also not easy to make "new" patterns. If your mole monster pattern looks similar to your boss mole pattern...what makes it a boss? It hits harder? Lame.

That's why $60 action games clocks hours in single digits, not quadruple digits.

[Dyne]

This is an MMO, subscription based as well. 5-10 tries? You're talking about 500-1000 repetitions. And it's also not easy to make "new" patterns. If your mole monster pattern looks similar to your boss mole pattern...what makes it a boss? It hits harder? Lame.

That's why $60 action games clocks hours in single digits, not quadruple digits.

500-1000 repetitions of zerging does not include much skill. Now, kiting, holding a few mobs, sleeping them, time nuking, time stunning, time skill chaining, etc... that is skill. When you have a black mage stun order on a mob that spams aga III every few seconds, meaning you are a black mage in line for stuns, and it's your turn to stun, but somehow you missed it when the mob started casting thundaga III and didn't stun, your entire alliance is wiped. I'm talking about that difficulty. Not stupid moles going underground pattern. Do you even play this game or played ffxi? Because, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. Have you ever fought a gobbue, that can one shot your tank, and spams paralyze and silence on a wide range? If you only played WoW or a WoW clone, then I highly doubt you have any idea what difficulty is like.

[kukurumei]

500-1000 repetitions of zerging does not include much skill. Now, kiting, holding a few mobs, sleeping them, time nuking, time stunning, time skill chaining, etc... that is skill. When you have a black mage stun order on a mob that spams aga III every few seconds, meaning you are a black mage in line for stuns, and it's your turn to stun, but somehow you missed it when the mob started casting thundaga III and didn't stun, your entire alliance is wiped. I'm talking about that difficulty. Not stupid moles going underground pattern. Do you even play this game or played ffxi? Because, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. Have you ever fought a gobbue, that can one shot your tank, and spams paralyze and silence on a wide range? If you only played WoW or a WoW clone, then I highly doubt you have any idea what difficulty is like.

What does the current intermediate battle system even have to do with said topic?

You're trying to denounce my creditability by talking about not understanding but you are yourself completely in the same shoes on almost every point.

How it is any different from describing a game where you leap over an enemy to land on it's head to kill it? Look you're dipping ducking diving and dodging! But the enemy is only moving back and forth.... just jump on it already and be done with it.

[Dyne]

What does the current intermediate battle system even have to do with said topic?

You're trying to denounce my creditability by talking about not understanding but you are yourself completely in the same shoes on almost every point.

How it is any different from describing a game where you leap over an enemy to land on it's head to kill it? Look you're dipping ducking diving and dodging! But the enemy is only moving back and forth.... just jump on it already and be done with it.

Again, all I want are dodge buttons to dodge left or right using it with our existing battle system and targeting system. Nothing I said was about leaping over an enemy's head to kill it. You are rank 1 archer, so I question if you even play. Enemies do not just go back and forth. They can chase you all over the place depending on how they adjust the enemy range. You probably don't even know that certain enemies do moves that can kill an entire party, except maybe the tank, if the party is right next to it, or right in front or whatever. Dodging moves like these require you to either be already a certain distance away or run far away and cross your fingers. The purpose of the dodge buttons is to quickly move you out of the way or die, that is if you actually saw what the mob is about to do because you were paying attention, and you'll have a second to make that decision. If you are just standing there just spamming away recklessly, when the mob does the move, you are dead.

[Winterclaw]

Now, kiting, holding a few mobs, sleeping them, time nuking, time stunning, time skill chaining, etc... that is skill. When you have a black mage stun order on a mob that spams aga III every few seconds, meaning you are a black mage in line for stuns, and it's your turn to stun, but somehow you missed it when the mob started casting thundaga III and didn't stun, your entire alliance is wiped. I'm talking about that difficulty.

That doesn't sound like difficulty, that sounds like tediosity. Bad mob design and no fun trying to deal with the poorly designed mob.

[Dyne]

That doesn't sound like difficulty, that sounds like tediosity. Bad mob design and no fun trying to deal with the poorly designed mob.

No, it is not tedious, in fact, it is actually fun or it can be very frustrating as well. Fighting something for 30minutes to over an hour that is very capable of one shotting everyone is very thrilling and very fulfilling in the end when all your hardwork is paid off. Tedious is when you do the same crap every single day like leves or going thru cumbersome menus.