DIP, DUCK, DIVE, DODGE!

[giftforce]

I played the little demo for Guild Wars 2 at PAX last year. Honestly, it's good, but it isn't anything special, and ArenaNet is making a lot of promises that are thus far empty.

They want the game to do so much, but they also want it to be able to run on antiquated hardware. It doesn't add up.

They are probably taking the programming and network code more seriously than the graphics. So they may be able to achieve what they want, it just wont be pretty.

With FFXIV, it was the other way around.

(When the game first came out, Japanese players were saying they used the old FFXI servers. I don't know if that's true or not, but my JP friends in game were saying as much.)

[kukurumei]

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

[Firon]

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

I agree with you, But i think action games in general have Bad A.I.

You know whats funny tho Fucking perfect dark on N64 has better A.I than 90% of these new era games that's kinda sad when a N64 game has better A.I then the modern C.O.D LOLz.

[kukurumei]

I agree with you, But i think action games in general have Bad A.I.

Action games AIs vary, Bosses have seriously upped AI, and multi level scenarios, while cannon folder may have an AI that's as simple as "move towards target and swing) Not to mention for $60, you're probably about 12hrs of gaming and maybe repeat on average 5 times.

MMO AIs are seriously one dimensional, even bosses. It's not worth the effort to design complicated AIs in MMOs due to the shear size you have to populate.

[Dyne]

I don't see why everyone ignores the obvious reason we don't do this.

Because we have bad AI in MMOs.

dodging, timing, all those are what you call "reactionary" methods. And the key to it being good or bad is a pattern scenario.

The problem with patterns is that they are extremely complicated to get right, reason AI is such a hot field to be in. and MMO have pretty much the dumbest AI out there in modern gaming.

This is doublely problematic when you have extreme repetition of MMOs, where it's not ten's of hours or even hundreds. You have thousands of ten thousand hours of repetition.

Once I figure out the pattern, that's it, content is conquered. If developers dare to make the same pattern again, it's considered bad content, because I already know how it works.

This is why ducking and dodging, etc belongs in short lived games or "lobby" games like Phantasy star. (Which Phantasy star online 2 is going to approach it by doing randomized dungeons)

A game like tera remains to be proven for anything more then a simply delusion. And definitely not some FF14 has the ability to do.

You need rapid rapid content, smarter and smarter AI, and constant brain storming. It's never going to work.

Unless your whole MMO is going to end up PvP where AI is not in the equation, it's just stupid. We're too smart for dumb AIs.

Not exactly, figuring things out is the best part. Just because one person figures out the possible perfect strategy to beat something does not mean everybody knows the perfect strategy. You have to do a linkshell huddle on the strategy and coordinate everyone so they can pull everything perfectly, and if things go bad, you improvise. Before zerging methods were invented in ffxi, and you guys were the first ones to be fighting certain bosses or bcnms, sometimes it could possibly take you 5-10 tries before you finally beat it, and that doesn't always guarantee a win the next several times you do it because someone in your party could mess up as well by not paying attention and not reacting fast enough.

I can't say the same for the other MMOs, well the rest are WoW clones, and you just have to attack, and if you are a healer, you know how to heal, you are a great player.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

Phantasy Star Online/Universe/online 2 are all action RPG duongeon crawlers, not MMORPGs


so comparing those is pointless, now Tera..... that game just sucks.

[Griss]

Funny part is. The game already allows you to dodge special attacks would not be to far of a leap to hope the same could be done with normal attacks. The main Problem with this as others have mentioned is the latency of the server updating your position and the game actually displaying everything correctly (ie why this type of thing is normally single player fodder). That being said it would be pretty darn nifty if players could shield each other from aoe attacks. On the flip side of that coin it could add new layers of strategy and skill use if the same were true of the mobs.

[Verecund]

It kind've sucks that we have latency issues now even though so few people are even online.....

[kukurumei]

Not exactly, figuring things out is the best part. Just because one person figures out the possible perfect strategy to beat something does not mean everybody knows the perfect strategy. You have to do a linkshell huddle on the strategy and coordinate everyone so they can pull everything perfectly, and if things go bad, you improvise. Before zerging methods were invented in ffxi, and you guys were the first ones to be fighting certain bosses or bcnms, sometimes it could possibly take you 5-10 tries before you finally beat it, and that doesn't always guarantee a win the next several times you do it because someone in your party could mess up as well by not paying attention and not reacting fast enough.

I can't say the same for the other MMOs, well the rest are WoW clones, and you just have to attack, and if you are a healer, you know how to heal, you are a great player.

This is an MMO, subscription based as well. 5-10 tries? You're talking about 500-1000 repetitions. And it's also not easy to make "new" patterns. If your mole monster pattern looks similar to your boss mole pattern...what makes it a boss? It hits harder? Lame.

That's why $60 action games clocks hours in single digits, not quadruple digits.

[Dyne]

This is an MMO, subscription based as well. 5-10 tries? You're talking about 500-1000 repetitions. And it's also not easy to make "new" patterns. If your mole monster pattern looks similar to your boss mole pattern...what makes it a boss? It hits harder? Lame.

That's why $60 action games clocks hours in single digits, not quadruple digits.

500-1000 repetitions of zerging does not include much skill. Now, kiting, holding a few mobs, sleeping them, time nuking, time stunning, time skill chaining, etc... that is skill. When you have a black mage stun order on a mob that spams aga III every few seconds, meaning you are a black mage in line for stuns, and it's your turn to stun, but somehow you missed it when the mob started casting thundaga III and didn't stun, your entire alliance is wiped. I'm talking about that difficulty. Not stupid moles going underground pattern. Do you even play this game or played ffxi? Because, I'm pretty sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. Have you ever fought a gobbue, that can one shot your tank, and spams paralyze and silence on a wide range? If you only played WoW or a WoW clone, then I highly doubt you have any idea what difficulty is like.