"I play the way I want" -Randomperson

[Ghishlain]

The moment you criticized you should expect people to end up taking the defensive, just like as I expected that comment I made about "play like gods" to get you on the defensive.

He's doing something and not nothing but then someone always has to ruin it because enemies don't drop like flies and bringing up "maximize rotation" or "max dps".

You are taking things out of context.

Again, I reiterate

"No one but the most hardcore elite of elite expect people to play like Gods. They are expecting them to know their role + class/job well enough to help defeat mobs in a timely manner based on their gear score."

I personally play with a sub-optimal setup because it suits my play style. For example

-I main WHM and I use a Crit Build, regarded as the worst build possible for a WHM to play. I am planning to build a Thyrus Novous that is ACC > Crit. Will this affect my performance? YES. Can I compensate for this with my skill sets? Yes! Will I ever achieve 100% super God-like play? No, because I am intentionally hampering myself to suit myself. However, I am NOT hampering the people I play with because of this decision on my part because I can compensate for the sub-optimal gear selection.

-When I play BLM, I start my single target rotation with Thunder (Not Thunder II or Thunder III). Optimal rotation for BLM begins with Thunder II followed by standard fire rotation. I am intentionally going a sub-optimal route because I enjoy going into Astral Fire III as soon as possible. Using Thunder will allow me that 0.5s faster. I also go from Flare into Tranpose into Thunder into Fire III (usually not capping MP) to go back into my fire rotation. Again, sub optimal, but it suits my style and hardly hampers my play for the content I want to do.

However, what is being discussed in this topic is not SUB-OPTIMAL but SUB-AVERAGE. You need no parser to know when someone is playing sub-average. You may need some knowledge of other classes to help you understand what they are doing wrong. However, in some respects all you need to do is look at the enmity accumulated on a boss to know how well or poorly a player is doing in respect to the other DPS in a light party.

Now, this isn't to say there are other factors involved. One can basically glance at the HP levels of the two DPS to determine their gear score. If one BLM is at 4.2K HP and the other is at 3.2K HP, then you can tell that one BLM's left side piece far outweigh the others. But if two classes of similar ilvl are paired side by side and one has a very distinct enmity lead, then one can infer that the DPS in question is providing a heavier contribution to overall damage between the two.

And then, if both DPS are playing poorly, this can lead to death in certain instances (Demon Wall being one of the prime examples back at the onset of the game). No one is asking for maximum DPS, maximum epeen factor, "God-like playing". But people are expecting the DPS to know enough about their rotation to over come these hurdles. If you cannot even perform this, and these individuals are not willing to listen to advice (when presented nicely, poorly presented advice is an entirely different can of worms), then this particular individual is now hampering the time of at least three other individuals.

People are not asking for you to do MAXIMUM damage. People are stating that they wish to see you do damage that is considered normal and respectable for your role.

[Gormogon]

People are stating that they wish to see you do damage that is considered normal and respectable for your role.

Seeing as you're most likely not paying their subscription or have any sort of digital or real world ties with that person, it shouldn't matter.

Criticizing a person in-game in a dungeon due to expectations can lead the experience from going from bad to extremely horrible. If you wanna risk it by "giving your 2 cents" go ahead I wont stop you. Yet if it doesn't end up the way you wanted then one should realize that they made the situation worse and trying to play the blame game doesn't help. They are both at fault from my point of view.

[Kerberon]

Seeing as you're most likely not paying their subscription or have any sort of digital or real world ties with that person, it shouldn't matter.

Criticizing a person in-game in a dungeon due to expectations can lead the experience from going from bad to extremely horrible. If you wanna risk it by "giving your 2 cents" go ahead I wont stop you. Yet if it doesn't end up the way you wanted then one should realize that they made the situation worse and trying to play the blame game doesn't help. They are both at fault from my point of view.

Considering there are things like dps checks where if you don't meet them the group will fail, polite advice is never in the wrong, and those that say it is are being deliberately toxic.

[Ghishlain]

Seeing as you're most likely not paying their subscription or have any sort of digital or real world ties with that person, it shouldn't matter.

In the same token, they are not paying for my subscription either. However, they are hampering my enjoyment of the game by playing the way they are playing because we might be wiping over and over again to the same boss and the person in question may be the direct cause of this wiping. Is it fair to myself that someone else, who isn't paying for my subscription, be hampering my enjoyment of the game? The coin can be flipped both ways in this regard. We're playing an MMO here, there should be a general level of respect and good play for the enjoyment of everyone we play with.

Criticizing a person in-game in a dungeon due to expectations can lead the experience from going from bad to extremely horrible. If you wanna risk it by "giving your 2 cents" go ahead I wont stop you. Yet if it doesn't end up the way you wanted then one should realize that they made the situation worse and trying to play the blame game doesn't help. They are both at fault from my point of view.

You are making the assumption here that I present myself in a negative light when I offer my help to other individuals.

-In my AV example previous, I was in that AV with a PLD and BLM both from my FC. We said nothing to the BLM, we made a comment about the BLMs playstyle in FC chat, but ignore the individual because we knew we could carry the BLM to victory. No words of ire arose from anyone.

-In a Pharos Sirious I had for DR, I was with a BLM who wasn't quite sure how to do his BLM rotation. He always was going from Fire to Ice half way through and never really throwing out any significant damage. I noticed he was also wearing AF mostly and seemed new to the 50 scene in general. I politely asked him "I noticed you're a new 50 BLM, would you like any help with your rotation?" He answered with a courteous yes and I gave him a few pointers. His rotation was still a mish-mash of buttons at times, but he was learning, and that's the important bit of the lesson.

-Generally, when someone mentions they are new for a a dungeon at the beginning, I make a point to state I can give them a few pointers when we get to the bosses (or any particular mob of note). We get to the boss, I usually run off 3-4 points to look out for without being prompted, and then we engage. No irksome words are exchanged.

HOWEVER, I will agree that many individuals do present themselves in a less than ideal light and this causes further strife and ire to be brought forward from both parties. In this particular case, yes, I agree, both parties are at fault. But your assumption that all "advice giving" leads to altercation is false. Just it "mostly does" given the negativity / elitism that many individuals have.

not if they have marc/evil druid cards :3

Mmm, the power of Unfrozen Water Armour on a VIT built Scholar was so fun. Jupital Thunder, eat your heart out. And then swapping to an Evil Druid Silk Robe to deal with other pesky Scholars =DDD Ah, the memories ~Wistfully remembers~

[Gormogon]

You are making the assumption here that I present myself

Before you go and jump to conclusions, I used "you" in a "general" manner. I didn't use "you" to mean specifically you.

[Ghishlain]

Before you go and jump to conclusions, I used "you" in a "general" manner. I didn't use "you" to mean specifically you.

Before you go and jump to conclusions, I suggest you be careful whom you quote and how you respond to said quote

With that snarky-ness aside, I don't fully agree with your statement, nor do I fully disagree with your statement. I think I stated my points quite clearly in the last few posts, so I shall leave it at we shall agree to disagree and let others formulate their opinions based on the discussion.

[Irving]

Seeing as you're most likely not paying their subscription or have any sort of digital or real world ties with that person, it shouldn't matter.

Criticizing a person in-game in a dungeon due to expectations can lead the experience from going from bad to extremely horrible. If you wanna risk it by "giving your 2 cents" go ahead I wont stop you. Yet if it doesn't end up the way you wanted then one should realize that they made the situation worse and trying to play the blame game doesn't help. They are both at fault from my point of view.

It should definitely matter as any person who joins into a dungeon is expected by the majority to pull their own weight. No one is saying said person should be perfect and perform within the upper echelon of players. Most of the people in here are saying that some baseline performance should be expected.

I will agree that people will often voice their criticism rather poorly and it can make a bad situation worse. Expressing advice and criticism this way can indeed be very damaging however it should not be an excuse to initiate destructive behavior as Kimikryo stated in his original post.

Let us remember, however, that while we are not paying said persons subscription fees or have any ties with the person, that they are not paying ours or the other members of the party. Due to such, I do not feel it is wrong for the majority of the party to voice their opinion as long as its voiced and expressed correctly. I also believe its proper to offer help and advice to others so they can better learn the intricacies of their desired job and thus allow them to better contribute to the group they are actively taking part in.

Unfortunately a lot of this ultimately depends on how people express themselves to one another and how one interprets these expressions so the best of intentions can be seen as the worst of insults.

Hyrist put it perfectly.

In the end, playing the way you want shouldn't be done at the expense of others. It's about putting forth an offering of goodwill to your fellow adventurers. Be courteous, and part of that is be responsible for the role you accepted when stepping into a random group. But being courteous is a responsibility for all players, not just the one who may seem to be lagging behind in performance. Too often we forget these things in the heat of the moment.

[Gormogon]

It should definitely matter as any person who joins into a dungeon is expected by the majority to pull their own weight.

If that's the expectation you're gonna put then don't use DF. It's that simple.

[Rubieus]

If that's the expectation you're gonna put then don't use DF. It's that simple.

I may have missed a comment so your sentence may be taken out of context. But, shouldn't there be some level of expectation? I mean, yes, at level 15, the first dungeon is Satasha. As any of the classes, I don't really expect you to go out of your way to be the MVP. However, if you queue up in anything post level 50. I should never have to question your fundamental skills. All black mages know to use fire III and then spam fire I, unless they need to AOE. Then when their MP is low, they swap to Blizzard III, and use Blizzard I until full mp, and then back to Fire. (All other skills can be fine tuned and put into rotation) But the basic fundamentals are the same. If you cannot even do that, then should I be penalized by your (not yours per say XD) lack of skill and understanding of a role which you decided to not only take to 50 (for achievement) but to continue on and do dungeons with?

[Gormogon]

I may have missed a comment so your sentence may be taken out of context. But, shouldn't there be some level of expectation?

When you queue through Duty Finder without having a full group? No, never. It's pointless. With those expectations in DF people tend to hurt themselves more often than not.
If you use PF then yes have expectations, the ones you placed.