I just wanted to point out a double standard...

[Bluevann]

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time.

Constructive criticism is valuable for every class and every role, but if you yell at a DPS because the fight is taking longer than what you wanted because the damage numbers are lower, that can very well be seen as harassment. The DPS is there, and is working to take the group to the win. Players whose only fault is poor ilvl equipment should not be put on the same level of those who neglect using certain skills altogether, or afking, or disregarding instructions.

[Ryel]

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time.

Constructive criticism is valuable for every class and every role, but if you yell at a DPS because the fight is taking longer than what you wanted because the damage numbers are lower, that can very well be seen as harassment. The DPS is there, and is working to take the group to the win. Players whose only fault is poor ilvl equipment should not be put on the same level of those who neglect using certain skills altogether, or afking, or disregarding instructions.

I agree although in regards to ilvl i feel thats more of an issue of both inaccurate ilvl checks at times and the lack of more ilvl 90+ content.

When you toss an ilvl 60 DPS up against an ilvl 100+ DPS in an ilvl 60-ish dungeon i'd hardly call it fair for the either of them. the ilvl60 DPS becomes the scapegoat for any DPS check mechanics that fail and the ilvl 100+ DPS feels like they're carrying everything because well... they kinda are at that point.

[KitanaiKoneko]

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time...

The rest of your post I agree with, but lets look at some examples where you don't have those 2 extra minutes (or 30s, or 10s).

T1: ADS has an enrage (although has anyone ever actually seen it?), have to deal enough damage so that damage stacks don't get too high/have to kill cad splits at similar times
T2: The entire turn has an enrage, even if its one that you can heal through.
T4: 60 seconds to kill a wave of mobs before the next wave drops.
T5: 13-minute encounter enrage, conflags, snakes, dreadknights.
~~~
T6: Not killing center bulbs fast enough can disrupt the fight, killing hornets before they go postal, final phase burn strategy, final phase superslug strategy.
T7: 11-minute boss enrage, soft enrage on heavy damage from adds
T8: 11-minute boss enrage, skipping phases through high dps can be extremely beneficial
T9: 13-minute boss enrage, killing both sets of golems in time for megaflare, only having 2 ghosts during heavensfall phase.

[necrosis]

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time.

What if that extra "2 minutes" is what causes the party to wipe because the WHM (even if at the top of their game) can not heal for that long?

I have been bitched out and called a crap WHM because the DPS are dragging the fight out so long I can not maintain MP to heal everyone.
I have also been yelled at for calling vote abandon on Copperbell (Hard) because the boss was at 30-40% HP when we ran out of stones. After trying it 3 times. The other 3 people could not get a clue they were seriously under geared and would not hear anything I had to say about it. Needless to say I ate the 30 min.

Not to mention doing 30 runs of Titan (Hard) in one weekend (all failing at the heart) I can now tell whiten 30 seconds of the fight starting if the DPS is up to snuff to kill the heart.

So yeah. There is more weight on the DPS to clear content than there is on the tank and healer. Are the tank and healer off the hook? No. But DPS matters more.

[ispano]

What if that extra "2 minutes" is what causes the party to wipe because the WHM (even if at the top of their game) can not heal for that long?

Not to mention forcing the rest of the group to pick up the slack for that person, ie doing more work. The other thing people forget is that, yes, you can notice when DPS is slow as a group. But when you have 2-4 DD, and they all look like they're doing everything right, how do you know which one is holding you back? People say enmity, but that's already known to be bunk due to enmity reducing abilities. I mean, hell, the good DPS could be using Quelling and have less enmity than the "bad" DPS and would then get called out for being the one playing poorly.

So, yes, it is somewhat of a double standard. But people don't actually care about that, they only care that someone might get called out and "harassed" which happens anyways.

[Viridiana]

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time.

Instances where taking extra time to kill things potentially leads to a wipe:

Haukke Manor (final boss adds)
Sunken Temple of Qarn (bees, wespes, verges)
Aurum Vale (final boss adds)
Wanderer's Palace (final boss stalkers)
Amdapor Keep (final boss pillars)
Copperbell Mines Hard (final part of rock-clearing phase, bombs on the bridge boss, final boss worm, potentially even the bomb on the spriggan boss)
Haukke Manor Hard (final boss adds)
Lost City of Amdapor (final boss doors)
Brayflox Longstop Hard (final boss bomb)
Hydra (Wyvern buffs)
Titan Hard (heart phase)
Thornmarch (have to kill X number of moogles)
Garuda Extreme (must be able to kill sisters or wipe)
Titan Extreme (heart phase, egis, super bombs)
Ifrit Extreme (nails, hard enrage)
Leviathan Extreme (fear add, hard enrage)
LotA (skellies, Atomos adds, bomb, KB adds)
Turn 1 (the longer the last half of Cad is alive, the worse)
Turn 2 (even enraging, healers don't have infinite MP)
Turn 4 (add buildup from hell, or a super-charged Dread)
Turn 5 (conflags, snakes, dreads, hard enrage)

. . .and I'm not even in SCoB to comment on those.

[Bluevann]

Instances where taking extra time to kill things potentially leads to a wipe:

stuff

I think I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't making the comparison between two types of wipes. I was making a comparison between a wipe and a victory that just took a little longer. If the DPS's slow damage causes a wipe, then they are as bad the healer I made an example with. I am just speaking in defense of those DPSs who get bashed despite the ruin being successful, just because it wasn't fast enough to A, B, or C player.

[Viridiana]

I think I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't making the comparison between two types of wipes. I was making a comparison between a wipe and a victory that just took a little longer. If the DPS's slow damage causes a wipe, then they are as bad the healer I made an example with. I am just speaking in defense of those DPSs who get bashed despite the ruin being successful, just because it wasn't fast enough to A, B, or C player.

That's the thing, though. Sometimes there is no "a little bit longer but still successful." There are instances where it's straight to "a little bit longer so we wiped." Sure, sometimes it's "Why is Titan at 10 stomps? @_@" but other times it's "Why aren't we getting past the heart?"

[Tiggy]

That's the thing, though. Sometimes there is no "a little bit longer but still successful." There are instances where it's straight to "a little bit longer so we wiped." Sure, sometimes it's "Why is Titan at 10 stomps? @_@" but other times it's "Why aren't we getting past the heart?"

This is a reality some people adamantly refuse to accept.