NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Duelle]

Three Thief job ideas have been posted in this thread, that I've seen anyway.

Add mine to that list:

Abilities
30 Steal: Steals a "dusty" item from the enemy. Is replaced by Use Spoils when successful. The stolen item is of poor quality and will break/vanish after 15 seconds. Success rate is determined by melee accuracy rating.
---Use Spoils: Use an item stolen from the enemy.

35 Accomplice: Increases target party member's attack power by 10% and transfers 50% of your total generated enmity to target party member for 10 seconds. 60-second cooldown.

40 Aura Steal: Steal a beneficial effect from target enemy. Success rate is determined by melee accuracy rating.

45 Viper Bite: Delivers an attack with a potency of 80 and poisons target for 15 seconds (poison potency: 10). Combo => Shiv: for every VB poison tick, you recover X TP.

50 Throat Stab: Delivers an attack with a potency of 120 (300 if behind the target). 3-minute cooldown

The basic idea would be the THF using Steal to take a dusty item from their foe and using it. Dusty items would always be beneficial on some level, but will vary between potions, grenades, and a special brew with a random positive effect. Accomplice would be a nod to how THF was originally designed in FFXI while giving it an ability more akin to the WoW Rogue's Tricks of the Trade (increases damage of target party member and transfer threat to that party member). Aura Steal would be very useful in a raid setting, provided THF is not the only job with the ability to effectively dispel enemy buffs (this would essentially be a melee version of WoW's Spellsteal ability).

Viper Bite and Throat Stab are mandatory to help THF in combat, because let's face the fact that the job's never had good melee options with the exception of Zidane in FFIX. Viper Bite is designed as an ability that increases TP regen (I originally conceived it as a combo ability for a Rogue ability called Shiv that also restored TP). Throat Stab could be a stand-alone attack like Dragonfire Dive, or an ability that teleports the THF behind the target before stabbing them in the throat.

[LoLo]

Nalien I like you idea. I think it would be cool if a Thief Job could steal stats from a monster and temporary debuff the mob as well as buff the entire party with whatever stats are stolen. Also I think it would be extra cool to have a Thief that could us a boomerang as a range attack action. Plus maybe stealing keys off mobs to open doors in instance dungeons would be super fun. There are so many things to think of to make Thief work.

[Nalien]

that the main trouble of the thief, it's nice in 1 player rpg... but the thief of FF series can't be used in mmorpg, because all they have is stealing! is not enough for make a jobs! a jobs need more deepth. indeed right now we only have 5 skill as jobs class, but what will happend when the level cap will be raised? maybe we will only get jobs skill.

You mean like all Dragoon had was Jumping?

That didn't stop the developers giving Dragoon four Jumps and a move that enhances Jumps, I'm sure it wont stop them implementing Thief, either.

To be fair, they aren't saying Ninja is Thief. But Rogue is, but I guess since all classes are jobs, they are indirectly saying it.

Actually, some of them literally were. I specifically remember someone telling me to just play Ninja and pretend its Thief.

Because if you did it that way, Ranger would be massively overpowered and be the only class that you play. Bard is balanced to against other DPS classes. So if you decide to add Ranger into the mix the Archer base class needs nerfs across to the board while simultaneously buffing Bard's job skills to make up for the deficit.

Did you just tell me it's not possible because Ranger would be overpowered, and then suggest how to prevent Ranger from being overpowered? Thanks... I guess...

So basically make Thief as needed as Bard because of support. Cool. It still won't change the gameplay difference between itself and Ninja because your rotations are almost always based on how your class plays and not the job.

Thief Steals to provide buffs.
Ninja does hand combinations to spit out Ninjitsu.
In between they both use the same combos.

Is that really any different from Scholar and Summoner? I mean, sure loads of Scholars are trash and never touch Bio once they hit 30, but when I play Summoner and Scholar, the play styles are pretty similar except Summoner uses Fester/Ruin in place of healing spells.

Don't misrepresent my statement. There is no job skill that Ranger could get that Archer doesn't already have, whereas White Mage received Holy. Ranger's iconic skills; Aim, Barrage. What does Archer have as base skills? Aim, Barrage. Now, nothing's impossible but it's not like devs have a whole lot of time to bring jobs that would be redundant so quickly. Bring out other wanted classes that need to fill the void first then we can backtrack to other things.

So what? You make it sound like Power Surge, Spineshatter Dive, Elusive Jump, Dragonfire Dive, Hallowed Ground, Spirits Within, Shield Oath, Sword Oath, Dragon Kick, One Ilm Punch, Fists of Fire, Shoulder Tackle, Rock Breaker, Infuriate, Steel Cyclone, Unchained, Inner Beast, Defiance, Battle Voice, Rain of Death, Benediction, Divine Seal, Presence Of Mind, Manawall, Apocatastasis, Convert, Enkindle, Spur, Tri-disaster, Fester, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, Leeches, Succor, Adloquium, Eos, and Selene are all classic abilities related to their Jobs.

They're not. I've said it before; Jobs only add a few classic skills, the majority are generic MMO skills. Most of the ones on that list people will recognize as being related to the Job will be from XI and I don't include them as classics because one game doesn't make for a classic skill, not matter how long we may have played that same game. They can do the exact same thing with Ranger. Eagle Eye Shot. There we go, Ranger has one recognizably Ranger skill. Same as Warrior.

As for bringing "needed" classes first... What needed classes? Rogue/Ninja is literally only getting added now to fill a stealth mechanic in PvP. The game has all the needed classes. Strictly speaking we don't need another Tank class few people will place, or another healer class. Not to mention, secondary Jobs require far less work to implement than additional Classes. Throw in; Marauder > Dark Knight, Pugilist > Dancer, Archer > Ranger, Conjurer > Geomancer, and that's four classic Jobs to please fans for very little work.

And finally, they don't have to bring every job into the game.

As if that's going to stop people asking for them or expecting them.

I'm truly surprised you're still arguing with the people who keep touting, "People who want thief just want a name change, herp derp."

Isn't it obvious by now they're either ignorantly or intentionally ignoring your arguments? There have been pages addressing their points, they manage to make ONE post that isn't, "You just want a name change! It wouldn't add anything!", and then go right back to their circular argument.

I blame SE for making me wait for FATEs, though the fact that this isn't getting anywhere is why I've taken to editing my posts, rather than wasting my daily allowance of posts (why is that a thing again?).

[Exstal]

You're kidding, right? Plenty of people throughout this thread have been claiming that, since Ninja comes from Rogue, and Rogue "is" Thief, you can just play Ninja as Thief (with Glamours) and ignore the 5 Ninja skills. It's been a very common argument from team "No Thief!", actually...

To be fair, they aren't saying Ninja is Thief. But Rogue is, but I guess since all classes are jobs, they are indirectly saying it.

Having Thief come off Rogue really isn't impossible either. We already know every Class will eventually have two Jobs, even if the developers don't drastically alter the system to allow that properly, something like Archer can have Bard and Ranger. Ranger would simply be pure DPS, while Bard throws in so support at the cost of DPS. Why could they not, for example, do the same thing with Ninja and Thief?

Because if you did it that way, Ranger would be massively overpowered and be the only class that you play. Bard is balanced to against other DPS classes. So if you decide to add Ranger into the mix the Archer base class needs nerfs across to the board while simultaneously buffing Bard's job skills to make up for the deficit.

Ninjitsu doesn't have to be offensive (in fact one of the most well known ones isn't), alternative you could take the old role Thief had very literally; stealing to help the party, and make Thief a semi-support Job. Instead of stealing gear, potions and items, it could simply work a different way, while still maintaining the steal motif. If you take Ninja as the semi-support role, then it's actually in a better position than Bard already; 3 Songs does not a Bard make, but 3 skills to make combinations to make Ninjitus? That's potential for a lot of Ninjitsu from just 3 skills.

So basically make Thief as needed as Bard because of support. Cool. It still won't change the gameplay difference between itself and Ninja because your rotations are almost always based on how your class plays and not the job.

You'll probably disagree with Archer getting Ranger though, since Archer already has Rangers skills. Because it's not like Conjurer has White Mages skills already; first skill that comes to mind when I think of White Mage is Cure, at least.

Of course I'd disagree with Archer getting Ranger.

Best way I think though, is to make Ninja a pure DPS, and Thief a semi-support Job, and they can do that easily with a Steal/Use mechanic. First skill could be Steal, which provides you with a unique effect based on the rarity of what you stole, and the enemy, it could even be detrimental. Next skill is Use, which lets you give that effect to the target. Very similar to my earlier suggestion, but much simpler. The other skills, like Paladin and White Mage etc., could just be generic MMO skills. You could still give them a Thief style twist though; an ability that converts the status effect into "Gil" (you sell it) which you then throw at the enemy, seeing as Gil Toss can never decide if its a Thief or Samurai skill.

This is the same problem as Ranger / Bard foolishness. Ninja will be balanced against other DPS (DRG/MNK/BLM/SMN/BRD) while THF's support skills have to be good enough that it allows them to compete in DPS. How do you determine that? Make those skills either really strong and give a very good raid increase.

How so? The majority of White Mages spell list comes from Conjurer, not White Mage. If you say Ranger can't come off Archer because Archer has Rangers skills, then the same should be true of Conjurer and White Mage. Fact of the matter is, even if the Class has it's skills, they can still add a Job to it, because once again and I am tired of saying this; Jobs literally only exist to provide the name and iconic imagery.

To quote Exstal;

-Want Ranger? Define it first because Archer currently has their main skills

Want White Mage? Define it first because Conjurer currently has their main skills.

Don't misrepresent my statement. There is no job skill that Ranger could get that Archer doesn't already have, whereas White Mage received Holy. Ranger's iconic skills; Aim, Barrage. What does Archer have as base skills? Aim, Barrage. Now, nothing's impossible but it's not like devs have a whole lot of time to bring jobs that would be redundant so quickly. Bring out other wanted classes that need to fill the void first then we can backtrack to other things.

For example, let's see Dark Knight, Samurai, Red Mage, Geomancer and Dancer make an appearance before we go back and play with Thief (because Rogue/Ninja) and Ranger (because Archer/Bard). Doing it now is a waste of resources to have two of the same type of job that have nothing new to bring to the play style.

once again and I am tired of saying this; Jobs literally only exist to provide the name and iconic imagery.

And finally, they don't have to bring every job into the game.

On a side note; I'm stoked for Ninja. Monk is probably my second favourite class because of dual wield, and I can jump on people's head? Awesome.

Three Thief job ideas have been posted in this thread, that I've seen anyway.

I'll grant you 2/3 because the one by Nero is overpowered and worthless.

[Duelle]

Because if you did it that way, Ranger would be massively overpowered and be the only class that you play. Bard is balanced to against other DPS classes. So if you decide to add Ranger into the mix the Archer base class needs nerfs across to the board while simultaneously buffing Bard's job skills to make up for the deficit.

Not really. The devs never gave ARC channeled shots, and that's probably what would be given to RNG if that were to stem from Archer. Rangers could be more DoT-based or better AoE or something along those lines. Similarly to how Marksmanship hunters and Survival hunters are very different despite coming from the same base class.

There is no job skill that Ranger could get that Archer doesn't already have, whereas White Mage received Holy. Ranger's iconic skills; Aim, Barrage. What does Archer have as base skills? Aim, Barrage.

This is irrelevant because at the end of the day RNG/THF/whatever will be defined by its mechanics and role. I'd worry less about Barrage and more about how it would work and what type of design would make sense for them.

[EdwinLi]

This is irrelevant because at the end of the day RNG/THF/whatever will be defined by its mechanics and role. I'd worry less about Barrage and more about how it would work and what type of design would make sense for them.

I kind of picture Ranger as the Sniper type of Job in FF14 due to Ranger's role as the long range job of the FF series.

But that only my guess how they can design Ranger.

[Bigpurpleharness]

I'm truly surprised you're still arguing with the people who keep touting, "People who want thief just want a name change, herp derp."

Isn't it obvious by now they're either ignorantly or intentionally ignoring your arguments? There have been pages addressing their points, they manage to make ONE post that isn't, "You just want a name change! It wouldn't add anything!", and then go right back to their circular argument.

[Toonz]

guys stop whining and suck it up if want thf so badly don't ever use the ninja stone and u can be a rogue all the way to 50 and be hated by everyone you come across have fun with that

[MartaDemireux]

I just wanted to point out that in a recent interview Yoshi said that ROG and NIN will receive different drops from primals. This means that either they're making the first viable instance of using a class over a job or perhaps we'll be seeing a 2nd job coming from ROG as well either in secret at 2.3 or shortly after release. My bet would be placed on ROG getting a 2nd job as SMN/ACN get different weapons than SCH from primals. Perhaps THF tank will be a reality and be the expansion's announced tank afterall! Or, perhaps just another DPS that plays differently thank NIN.

Three Thief job ideas have been posted in this thread, that I've seen anyway.

I had one either in this thread or another (so hard to keep track with all the similar threads!) that made THF a tank as well. Found it:

Essentially what I expect:

Rogue/Scout (DPS):
Stealth/Hide (PvP: blocked out or have very short duration)
Attacks focus on hitting from behind. Fast, critical hitter.
Buffs to evasion.
Steal & Swipe but won't steal items. Perhaps used in mechanic for other abilities or temporary potions. Only usable while in stealth.
Accomplice - equalize the enmity of you and another player.
Flee - increased movement speed, stacks with sprint but not with Swiftsong.

Ninja (DPS):
30: Throw - Ranged attack.
35: Blitz - AoE lightning damage.
40: Water Veil - Ranged water damage and silence.
45: Smoke Bomb - Ranged damage and Blind.
50: Mirage/Utsusemi - Buff that allows your back attack bonuses to be applied at any direction. Allows short duration of stealth while in combat. Bonus damage while in stealth.

Thief (Tank):
30: Vigilance: Tank enmity/mitigation stance. Allows counter-attacks. Changes some class abilities to generate enmity. Adds a mechanic to theft type abilities and can be used while not in stealth. Steal upgrades to Mug, Swipe to Pillage for increased enmity and added damage. Accomplice takes some of the other players enmity and adds it to your own etc.
35: Life Steal/Pilfer HP: Steals HP from target. High enmity.
40: Detect: Anticipates attacks for reduced/nullified damage.
45: Larceny: Steal an active buff from target. If no buff steals TP and deals critical damage. High enmity.
50: Perfect Dodge: Long cooldown 100% mitigation.

Thief varied a lot in other games so it can be changed significantly in this one like they did with Scholar.

But certain people are insisting that THF must be a DPS because it's coming from a DPS class (SCH says "Hello") or that it must be DPS because it has been considered as such before (WAR says "Hello") and obviously jobs can't have a different role than they have in the past (BRD says "Hello"). Several current MMO's use the stealty tank archetype successfully. We definitely need a different tank archetype in this game. We have the standard sword and shield and the 2-handed versions both heavily armored and pretty much just eating all the hits. Boring!

It honestly sounds like they're already making NIN a very different playstyle than ROG as it is. I'm guessing the entire mudra system is NIN exclusive.

As far as the RNG argument:

RNG could play entirely different than ARC/BRD. Instead of shooting in running they could stand still while shooting for increased damage via a draw gauge which increases the damage depending on how tight you've been drawing your bow; Animals can make a reappearance from FFV to add extra damage and/or support; Trapping can be utilized from the tactics series; We have abilities that aren't used too often such as Shadowbind and Repelling Shot which could be given their own mechanics. Possibilities are nearly endless.

[Zoeila]

id be more interested in an assassin than an actual thf