NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[MartaDemireux]

They use INT for magic damage and MND for healing because they're magical DPS and healer.

How would a close range DPS not focus on STR since there's a big chance that all his weapon skills damage will improve from it ?!
The main purpose of a DPS is damage, and you want to focus on "non-damaging mechanics" ? I don't understand, sorry.

That's why I used THF as an example. It's not in. It doesn't have to be a DPS. It could be a support job using DEX to heal/raise others atk/recover tp/etc. It could be a tank using DEX to increase enmity values.

They do use INT and MND for magical attack potency and healing potency, yes. They still have Attack Power and it is still based on their STR.

A Rogue/Ninja/Thief/etc. has almost always (if not always) used dexterity and agility in their damage formulas. This is because they are supposed to be dextrous and agile. Since we only have DEX here and not AGI a good analogy would be that they use their dexterity to hit weak points in the monster. Rogue/Ninja/Thief/Archer/Bard could all say this is true as they all want precision in their attacks to deal the most damage that they can with their weapons. Jobs like PLD/MRD/MNK/DRG however don't really care about how precise their attacks are because their weapons allow for them to just smash into the monster. If they were to add in a Fencer class I would expect them to be dextrous to hit weak spots and not just smash wildly just like in real life.

And again there are ranged physical attacks which do not use DEX as a modifier but as it currently states in the tool tips they should be affected by it. But it doesn't make any sense for them to be affected by it because then they would do no damage at all and be pointless to use because the weapons they come from utilize STR and so their armor sets reflect this. You can also run into close range on BRD and auto-attack by punching. That damage is still calculated with DEX as that's what is used for BRD's attack power.

[Reynhart]

A Rogue/Ninja/Thief/etc. has almost always (if not always) used dexterity and agility in their damage formulas.

Ok, people really need to stop using "always" when they say ONLY IN FFXI. Which is technically wrong too since STR and its effect on Attack had a far greater impact on calculating damage than DEX.
And in FFXI, AGI (Which our DEX is far closer to) was useful only for Trick attack, and ONE WS for Dagger or Katana.

And in EVERY offline game, Strength improved attack power, thus physical damage. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Strength

[MartaDemireux]

Ok, people really need to stop using "always" when they say ONLY IN FFXI. Which is technically wrong too since STR and its effect on Attack had a far greater impact on calculating damage than DEX.
And in FFXI, AGI (Which our DEX is far closer to) was useful only for Trick attack, and ONE WS for Dagger or Katana.

And in EVERY offline game, Strength improved attack power, thus physical damage. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Strength

I'm talking about the Rogue/Thief/Ninja archetype on the whole in every video game series ever. Not just FF.


For FF examples:

FFI-VIII, X-2, XII: FF's with an ATB it is usually referred to as Speed but sometimes also Agility or Dexterity. The more you have the faster it fills. The faster it fills the more attacks you get in. The more attacks you get in the more damage you deal. Thieves had the most of it.

FFIX: Zidane's Thievery does more damage depending on how much speed you have.

FFX: Determines how often you get a turn.

FFXI: As you said DEX calculates Sneak Attack and AGI calculates Trick Attack. However DEX was used to calculate nearly every dagger weaponskill. DEX was the only stat to use on dagger weaponskills. It also effected critical hit rate which was important there.

Non-FF Examples:

Bravely Default: DEX affects accuracy and brave attack rate. AGI affects evasion, how many hits you get in one attack, turn order and first strike rate. Thief also gets an ability which converts all of its speed (based from AGI) into an attack.

WoW: AGI increases ranged attack damage as well as melee attack damage for Rogues (also shamans and bear/cat form druids). Also increases critical hit rate and dodge rate.

Rift: Warriors and Rogues gain attack damage from dexterity but Rogues get a larger gain from it.

I can give you more examples if you wish.

It really seems like you had to pull the FFXI clause because your argument was losing strength, though.

[Viridiana]

I'm talking about the Rogue/Thief/Ninja archetype on the whole in every video game series ever. Not just FF.


For FF examples:

FFI-VIII, X-2, XII: FF's with an ATB it is usually referred to as Speed but sometimes also Agility or Dexterity. The more you have the faster it fills. The faster it fills the more attacks you get in. The more attacks you get in the more damage you deal. Thieves had the most of it.

FFIX: Zidane's Thievery does more damage depending on how much speed you have.

FFX: Determines how often you get a turn.

FFXI: As you said DEX calculates Sneak Attack and AGI calculates Trick Attack. However DEX was used to calculate nearly every dagger weaponskill. DEX was the only stat to use on dagger weaponskills. It also effected critical hit rate which was important there.

Non-FF Examples:

Bravely Default: DEX affects accuracy and brave attack rate. AGI affects evasion, how many hits you get in one attack, turn order and first strike rate. Thief also gets an ability which converts all of its speed (based from AGI) into an attack.

WoW: AGI increases ranged attack damage as well as melee attack damage for Rogues (also shamans and bear/cat form druids). Also increases critical hit rate and dodge rate.

Rift: Warriors and Rogues gain attack damage from dexterity but Rogues get a larger gain from it.

I can give you more examples if you wish.

Speed affecting your ATB charge is vastly different from it affecting your damage formula, which was your original claim. So, that nullifies your I-VIII, X, X-2, XII examples. It's the same way that Haste has no actual bearing on your damage formula, it just means you can attack more often.

Thievery's damage is easier to boost by stealing items, to the point where the Speed contribution becomes negligible, but it counts. . .

XI is probably your best example.

And everyone always forgets FFT, where daggers (one of Thief's basic options) was [(Speed+Physical Attack)/2]*Weapon Damage. Of course, even there PA (basically Strength) was just as good at boosting damage as Speed was.

[Hik0]

Ok, people really need to stop using "always" when they say ONLY IN FFXI. Which is technically wrong too since STR and its effect on Attack had a far greater impact on calculating damage than DEX.
And in FFXI, AGI (Which our DEX is far closer to) was useful only for Trick attack, and ONE WS for Dagger or Katana.
And in EVERY offline game, Strength improved attack power, thus physical damage. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Strength

lol at the AGI comment since in XI

(don't care about the defensive effect of the stats)
- there is STR AGI and DEX,
- STR: physical dmg (melee and range)
- DEX: melee accuracy, physical crit rate (melee and range)
- AGI: ranged accuracy
- daggers: only relic and DNC mythic WSes get STR mods
- katana: while STR is a mod for most WSes it's never the only one and tie with INT or DEX, merit and relic are dex only, empy is agi

stop with the "in X other game in work like that"
in lot of other games ranged dmg are also physical and affected by STR, not in this one.
If SE says that daggers are "dual wiled dmg" type and that it's affected by dex so be it.

[Reynhart]

lol at the AGI comment since in XI

You purposely removed AGI effect on defensive skills... You, know, like DEX here affect Block and Parry rate.

[Exstal]

If Rogue does not have Mug, Steal, Escape, Trick Attack, etc then there is PLENTY of room for a Thief job.

And if Rogue has all those skills (except Trick Attack which is worthless in ARR)? I'm sure it wouldn't deter anyone.

[silentwindfr]

exept you don't have any real support role in the game... thief as support will be a DPS and Yoshida don't want to have 2 jobs with the same role come out from the same class.
by the way, you can try to say, imagine, imagine, imagine... if the dev don't want to imagine...you can't force them to imagine. we are bound to respect the rule and the will of the dev in a mmorpg.

when they have said, no thief because of lore, because stealing is bad! (and even if you steal bad guys, it's still bad) we are bound to respect this.
steal stats was often showed, i was even in the past say it was a good idea... but the trouble is how balance it? that the difference between imagine and do create a skill and make it work. and here steal stats offer more trouble than any possible skill.

anyway, we are beating a dead horse here... since they have already states, no thief jobs. we must move on and try to see what we can get other than this.

[MartaDemireux]

when they have said, no thief because of lore, because stealing is bad! (and even if you steal bad guys, it's still bad) we are bound to respect this.

They said there wouldn't be a Thieves Guild in Eorzea (which is just an island). This is because no city would want a band of thieves. Jobs, however, are tied to the character. In the story your character is only one of usually 2 people on the island of Eorzea to partake in that way of life. The other person is the one to teach you the stuff. Three of the jobs feature you being the only one left when all is said and done.

Further, the actual description SE gave for Rogue uses the word "Pilfer" which means to steal. They've incorporated theft as it is and give them a Robin Hood theme to it (Source).

Even further, it's the dev team's job to imagine. Of course they will imagine.

[Reynhart]

Too long to quote entirely

Too bad we're in a FF game, and precisely in THIS FF game, DEX improves Ranged attack, Block rate and parry rate.

And sorry, but you can't just take any stat you like from previous FF and match it with the Dexterity...
How often we get a "turn" ? We have that, it's called Skill Speed
Speed in early FF ? Again, Skill Speed
In Bravely Default, DEX increases Accuracy and do nothing on damage. Agility is a different stat improving the number of hits and again, we have Skill Speed for how often we can strike.

In WoW, classes are built around stats like in Diablo 3, and those stats specifically says "Increase damage for [class-name]" Do you see such a thing like "Increase damage for Lancer and Pugilist" ?

Tell me that Rogue/Ninja should have a much higher Skill Speed and I'd support that wholeheartedly. Like RDM should have much higher Spell Speed so it can cast faster and more often.