NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Reynhart]

Lucky for us this forum wasn't created since the beginning of Final Fantasy, or we'd still be debating over "Fighter vs Warrior", "Knight vs Paladin", "Black Belt vs Monk", "Priest vs White Mage" and "Wizard vs Black Mage"...

[Bigpurpleharness]

Indeed, we're back...because nothing that people asked is denied to them except for the name.

In fact, that's strange...people complain because they want iconic Thief skills although we don't even know what skills the Rogue will have

Oh, cool, I stand corrected then. I didn't realize we would be able to play it at 50 without hindering ourselves with lower stats. I didn't know it had the iconic thief abilities. I didn't realize it was going to have quests all the way 50.

All this discussion reminds me a South Park chapter...

Cartman's mon: ohh look Toshiba handibook, same hardware and does everything the Ipad does, but half the price...
Cartman: yes, but it's not an Ipad...

So I guess Rogue could be a thief clone, have all it's traditional skills/traits, be played like a thief always was played....then you get a soulstone for ninja (like you know, ninja being an advanced class for thief in lots of FF games), still has all the thief traditional skills/traits, still hold the same thief playstyle....but is not called "thief"....the horror....

If it moves like a duck, acts like a duck, quacks like a duck....then is a duck even if I dress it up like a cat...

You two seriously must just be trying to argue. There is no way anyone can say a class that's going to have to use ninjutsu is going to play as a thief. It's not as simple as, "Just glamour your ninja". Hell, why do we need Ninja if we're doing that? Monks can increase your movement speed just make it look like a ninja. Dragoons can jump, just do that.

[LoLo]

At this point I don't even know why there is still a discussion here because people keep entertaining trolls.

You have one person who said they are being bias again a Thief job in this game.

Then you have another person who posts 5 + times on each page and repeats the same tired arguments twice a page.

Why are you still trying to communicate with them?

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Lets get back to what is important, requesting for the class Rogue to be changed into Thief. It doesn't affect the Ninja job if this happened, and DD ques will be just like they were when SMN was first introduced. For a few weeks there is a lot of traffic but later down the road everything evens out. There is no reason not to include Thief and I feel that Yoshi is not standing by his word of bring iconic jobs by saying Rogue class is this games version of Thief in the Final Fantasy series.

[Jandor]

Why do jobs have to be massively different anyway, what's wrong with 2 flavours of the same thing? If classes and jobs were slapped onto a sphere grid or skill tree or something I bet no one would have any issue with jobs just being minor variations.


Also, 5 skills seems like the ideal amount for giving a DPS class a support sub-role.

[Reynhart]

I didn't realize we would be able to play it at 50 without hindering ourselves with lower stats.

A DPS soulcrystal that will hinder stats on a DPS class ?! You fear to be cripled with less Mind ?

I didn't know it had the iconic thief abilities.

In fact yes, neither of us do know exactly, except that Yoshi said "It's like a Thief"

I didn't realize it was going to have quests all the way 50.

You're right, jobs have waaaayyyyy more lore quests than class...well, only one more, actually

There is no way anyone can say a class that's going to have to use ninjutsu is going to play as a thief.

There is a no way a job that uses 75% of the equivalent of Thief can play as a Thief ?

Like there's no way a Bard can play as an Archer because he has 3 songs ?

[Derekloffin]

I really don't know why people seem to be stuck on the 5 skill thing. Guys, we're not going to be stuck at level 50 forever here. We are going to get cap raise, and with cap raises we'll get even more abilities. Keeping the current progression, we'll likely get 7 with the next cap raise (which will likely be level 60). If we go to FFXI's long term cap of 75 that is 10 abilities. Yes, it is hard to differentiate two jobs from the same class right now, but a cap raise or two and it will become considerably easier.

We probably won't see THF in the short term, but in the future I think it is a strong possibility, if for no other reason than there is plenty of demand, and there is little other that would fit for Rogue as an alternate job.

[Hollow_Tears]

Did I miss some info somewhere where did/does it show scout or does scout mean rogue and no I did not read much of the previous posts.

[Reynhart]

I really don't know why people seem to be stuck on the 5 skill thing. Guys, we're not going to be stuck at level 50 forever here. We are going to get cap raise, and with cap raises we'll get even more abilities.

We'll get new abilities for classes too, not tied to the job lore.

[Cynric]

Reynhart just let it go. They want to play thief as a job. Which probably will never happen anyway. Thief is a class here and named Rogue and performs the same role it does in most ff games, to turn into a Ninja or better class down the line. They can't accept that, however regardless of what we do or don't say, they will have to deal with it as it isn't going to change.

[Kinseykinz]

Thief, as a Job, would be used at endgame (or just post-30). Rouge, as a Class, would not.

Is this really a difficult concept to understand? People want Thief as a Job, because it's one of the more iconic Jobs in the franchise, which is why Yoshida even implemented Jobs in the first place. Literally his first order of business after taking over XIV was to implement iconic Final Fantasy Jobs...

Honestly, the reasoning of "What's the difference?" makes very little sense to me. What's the difference between Gladiator and Paladin? Literally the only iconic thing Paladin adds is Cover, and I very rarely see people using that. Lancer and Dragoon? All they added was Jumps. Why exactly is it so unreasonable to expect Rouge => Thief as a second Job when it would really be no different than what every other Job is?

People keep making this argument that Rouge might as well be Thief, because Jobs only add 5 abilities. Isn't that just an argument to add Thief though? Jobs only add AF/Relics and 5 abilities, so why not make Rouge => Thief? Most Job abilities aren't strictly related to the FF canon, for the most part they're just generic MMO moves. I really do not understand the rejection of a Thief Job possibility...

1. Thief is no more or less iconic in the FF series as Ninja. Both roles appear in more or less the same amount over time. If anything, it could be argued that Ninja's represent worldwide more 'beloved' FF characters than Thiefs.
2. Originally, Thief was the starting role, that get this....upgraded to NINJA....meaning endgame, you didn't see your little 16bit THF...but a 16bit NIN.
3. People are saying Rogue is another word for Thief, and that SE explained that they decided not to call it Thief (which btw implies that in their minds Rogue IS=THF and therefore the role/place for THF in this game is filled) is due to their personal feelings about what the term 'Thief' means and if it should belong in this world as a guild.

- The whole 'but come on...this game has a pirate town!' counter doesn't work well either because it's NOT the pirates who this story will be branching from. The Rogue(THF) character has been in this game from day 1 of the original 1.0 Storyline. He's a key figure in the main story, a scion and just point blank someone who has too much power and influence to be consider a 'petty' thief. But his womanizing ways, swagger and fighting style does feel very Rogue

They made a naming/lore decision. Deal with it.
The actual playstyle of THF however, they added. Who cares what the call it...or even what pixels they choose to represent it's imaginary gear?

4. The 'but it still could be a job down the road' people:
-Again, when SE explained why they are calling the class Rogue and not THF, they basically also implied that in their development minds, Rogue=another name for Thief. If this is true, then at least at this point, there is no future plan to include Thief as a potential job split off from Rogue.
-You run into a 'why would we need Thief as a job if we have Ninja' problem. You have 5 skills at the current level cap to make Ninja and Thief serve different party functions. They more or less would both have to attack the same (as SCH/SMN shows, your weapon and animations don't change, rather the additional 5 key skills do). So what could a Thief bring to a group that makes it shine AND different enough from Ninja. Also, in a DD saturated game, do we need yet another DD. If they did somehow develop Thief into a Support/Tank/Healer role, would it be enough to make the role seem fun and entice people to play....or would it be a chore? How many who want Thief for example, would really be happy if it was introduced in game....as a tank. And how many tank main-type people would be happy having to level the DD-role of Rogue for 30+ levels just so they could tank. (SCH suffers from this a little now...not all who enjoy healing enjoyed leveling ACN for 30 levels until they could actually heal). Maybe it could make a decent support-type role in game...but currently, that's not a 'queuing' option. And down the road when SUPPORT is a queuing option, is a Thief Support role really better than some of the other potential support roles that could (and probably should) be added to the game.


So the reason for the 'rejection' is this:
1. The 'stealth type'/fast attacker/ dual-wielding class/job IS being added -so people who enjoy this playstyle/role are getting what they want
2. It had to be named something...no matter what name they picked, someone would be sad. They could have named Ninja Thief, given it the SAME skills/ability and look and less of you would be complaining....but NIN people would be upset then most likely
3. When a dev team says more or less 'we decided not to name it x and named it y instead because....' it implies they developed it as x. Refer to it as x. Believe it fullfills the role of x. So there is no reason in their world to add another x. x already exists.
4. Logic. The jobs are simply too similar....at least in what is typically expected of them. Can SE go out on a limb and be creative. Sure. Is that what THF people want? Not really.
5. Its. A. Name.

PS: Paladin gets: Shield Oath/Sword Oath/Cover/Spirits Within/Hallowed Ground ( old name Invincible)
So it gets more than 'cover' and more than 1 iconic Skill....as Invincible is also iconic....also, level 50 is not level cap.