I don't understand...

[Foo01]

... You keep talking about everything being a collective effort, yet you insist that advice should not be given unless asked for, and that means having people adjust themselves to work around the poorest player (which was clearly the case in this situation). ....

People have to adjust because the better players can adjust and the ones that are inexperienced can't do what they don't know, otherwise known as pushing a string. Sorry those are the breaks.

An obviously the so-called polite advice was not well received. Sometimes what needs to happen, and I what I've done as healer in this case is to eat the mob and die before the tank even while healing the tank. When I die, the tank invariably will die a little later. This is wake up call to him. So at that point you request help to keep the mob off of you because you have died. The tank for his own best interest naturally will, and all you need to do is bring that mob to him. See you are not telling him what to do, but letting the situation point him to the direction it must go. The troll tank in this situation will keep letting you die and letting the party wipe, and it will be real obvious to the group who the troll is and vote kick the troll.

The wipe is also a tool for helping the party work together better.

The whole "work around that player" argument strikes me as completely ridiculous since everything we ever do in this game is working around other players. It's when a player is unworkable that we have issues.

The only type player that is unworkable is the troll because they deliberately want to work against your objective. "Working around" happens at various level and it is just a matter of degrees. It is not ridiculous, but there is no two ways about this, some have more experience, some have better gear etc. It is never 100% equal at any given time. And actually the more you push yourself, the more you will find that others are not keeping up, so more working around to a greater degree. That is a necessary fact of improving faster than other players or simply playing more.

[Judge_Xero]

Suggesting to a tank that they should Flash more than once is a significantly smaller adjustment than having three people working around someone who refuses to to press a button more than once.

Such an elitist thing to say. How can you sleep at night. In an ideal situation the DD's should have rotated Potions in order to reduce the amount of Enmity the healer was generating from keeping the tank alive. Just lazy DD's IMO.

/endsarcasm

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Part of playing an MMO and especially in the DF is to be able to adapt to others play style.
- If you are a tank and in a party with heavy AOE players - Flash/Overpower more etc
- If you are a healer with an under geared tank, that although they are using the proper skills etc can't keep hate from you. - Regen + Stoneskin or Aldo etc
- If you are a DD and the tank has trouble with enmity but is doing correct skills etc - rotate damage through mobs.

If someone is offering advice, then take it and say "thanks". That's how you get better. If you don't enjoy being good at your role then, stop playing.

[Tiggy]

The only type player that is unworkable is the troll because they deliberately want to work against your objective. "Working around" happens at various level and it is just a matter of degrees. It is not ridiculous, but there is no two ways about this, some have more experience, some have better gear etc. It is never 100% equal at any given time. And actually the more you push yourself, the more you will find that others are not keeping up, so more working around to a greater degree. That is a necessary fact of improving faster than other players or simply playing more.

I'm just pointing out that even having to say "work around the other players" seems pointless since that's literally how you play the game. That's teamwork. That is what makes MMOs great. So every time someone says "just work around them" I'm immediately think "do you really think we aren't doing that already? The fact that we are doing that and it still isn't working means something else needs to happen to meet us half way because working around you obviously isn't enough right now."

Oh and I completely agree. Sometimes wiping is the best tool to illustrate why something didn't work. That is until they turn the blame on you somehow completely invalidating the lesson. Like if a tank pulls too many mobs than the healer can handle. Then the tank blames the healer. It ends up being the tanks fault, but the wipe gets pushed to the healer since he refuses to accept any personal responsibility.

[Foo01]

....The fact that we are doing that and it still isn't working means something else needs to happen to meet us half way because working around you obviously isn't enough right now."
....

It would be nice if the could meet you half-way, but in the way of that is the fact that they can not know what they don't know and they can't do what they don't know. And it be nice if they didn't get mad and treat any advice or tips as bossing them around. But those are the breaks.

And invariably you will improve faster than them so that half-way mark will keep averaging higher (average = [your skill level + their skill level] / 2) so you can't possibly expect them to meet your half way. And I do not expect that because I know it is impossible.

... If that ONE person does not feel like putting in the effort to try to hit a middle ground with the 3-7 other players in the group, THEY do not belong there....

They can't get to the middle ground the instant you demand it, that is a fact. And it is elitist to say they don't belong, because this is the elitist ethos to exclude lesser players. And to say it like that don't feel like is as if they are lazy is completely bogus. SE made the right decision to make the game more accessible and be more inclusive. Elitist wants to be exclusive which is clearly not what is good for the game.

[ispano]

It would be nice if the could meet you half-way, but in the way of that is the fact that they can not know what they don't know and they can't do what they don't know. And it be nice if they didn't get mad and treat any advice or tips as bossing them around. But those are the breaks.

And invariably you will improve faster than them so that half-way mark will keep averaging higher (average = [your skill level + their skill level] / 2) so you can't possibly expect them to meet your half way. And I do not expect that because I know it is impossible.

Except they can. There are many solutions to learning something you don't know, one of them in particular, advice from other people. Refusing to even LISTEN to that advice, be it good or bad, is ALL on that player. You can't just pull out the "He doesn't know how, so he can't do it". No. It should be "He doesn't know how, let's show him how(or teach him how)" But guess what, you just get harassed for doing that, or called an elitist. I'm sorry, you are wrong.

They can't to the middle ground the instant you demand it, that is a fact. And it is elitist to say they don't belong, because this is the elitist ethos to exclude lesser players.

Good job missing the point, they can if shown or told how. That's the entire point of giving advice, so people can LEARN and do better. But REFUSING to listen to the advice and improve, they do not belong. They are WILLINGLY refusing to TRY to do better, they do not belong. They are the ones in the wrong.

We are ALL human. We all can learn and improve. Hell, I have a friend on my server who can't use the whole left side of his body, and he's always trying to be a better player. He doesn't ignore advice or bash people for saying ANYTHING against him. He's physically disabled, making this game hard for him to play and he STILL TRIES.

EDIT: One other thing. Meeting half way does not literally mean HALF. It means both parties COMPROMISE. If one side is not compromising AT ALL, in a group situation, they are wrong.

[Tiggy]

And I do not expect that because I know it is impossible.

Then you have simply accepted defeat in the face of an insurmountable task. Many of us have a more positive outlook on players and we would rather help them meet us half way. It's a much better option than raging, yelling, or outright quitting the dungeon which teaches no one anything except the degree to which ones patience has worn thin. People keep asking for patience with these kinds of players. They want us to stick the dungeon out and just help them through it. In the same token those newer players need the patience to accept help.

I'm not saying any one group of players is at fault here. Experience players need more patience and tact when they help newer players. Newer players should learn how to be a better part of the team and accept that they don't know everything and that those experienced players might have some genuinely good information to share.


The only reason this problem exists is because players on both sides refuse to meet in the middle.

[Foo01]

Then you have simply accepted defeat in the face of an insurmountable task.

I have not accepted defeat. I just don't require that meet us half-way as a starting point. I just don't need to them to make that leap immediately. Just because you can't push a string does NOT mean you can not thread a needle right? I can be more patient and hopeful. So it goes back to going slower.

...They are the ones in the wrong....

It is so easy for you to say some else is in the wrong isn't it? That is exactly the elitist ethos also. Always someone else is wrong. If you can't get advice to them that doesn't sound like an insult to them or why do they not accept the advice, then maybe your problem is understanding the human psychology of the receipt of the said advice. But elitist will never want to solve that problem, because it is always some else that is wrong. You do realize that their are whole research institutes, marketing arms, propaganda organizations etc. that has spent years millions of man hours trying to figure out how to get their intended messages to their intended targets right? If you are not getting thru to them, it is not that they are wrong, it is probably because this is a difficult problem that probably has no good solution. Calling them wrong doesn't solve anything. Telling them that they don't belong is just being elitist, and that was never SE's stance anyways.

[Kerberon]

I have not accepted defeat. I just don't require that meet us half-way as a starting point. I just don't need to them to make that leap immediately. Just because you can't push a string does NOT mean you can not thread a needle right? I can be more patient and hopeful. So it goes back to going slower.

Spray the string with starch first then let it dry. This is equivalent to giving advice and teaching. Guess you can push it. Btw in your world should we close down all the schools and universities?

[Tiggy]

I have not accepted defeat. I just don't require that meet us half-way as a starting point. I just don't need to them to make that leap immediately. Just because you can't push a string does NOT mean you can not thread a needle right? I can be more patient and hopeful. So it goes back to going slower.

I don't expect to start mid way. That's unrealistic. You'll start dungeons sometimes with brand new players that can't possibly meet half way. I thread the needle is when I see problems occurring over and over and they aren't getting corrected naturally so I'll pop up and offer advice. I only offer the advice after the problem appears to be systemic in the players technique and is causing problems or preventing advancement in the dungeon. Just because I want to help people doesn't mean I'm giving them a lecture before the first pull. I sit back, I observe, I play along, and only if necessary do I give advice. My entire stance has been moderation from the beginning.

[Foo01]

Spray the string with starch first then let it dry. This is equivalent to giving advice and teaching. Guess you can push it. Btw in your world should we close down all the schools and universities?

What if they are allergic to starch? It irritates them. You can't force them to like it.

The people that go to universities are all looking to learn and looking for advice. Unfortunately this is a game, played for fun, so it is not school. As for school, especially compulsory education (k-12 in the US), I am not so sure it make sense because too many of those kids especially starting at 13 or so, they don't want to learn, and they act just like the people you have problems with in game. But that is a whole other debate.