I don't understand...

[ispano]

Flash works like crap at that level. Flash doesn't even begin to compare with overpower. And if need to flash more that twice per pull then the rest of the group is not helping one bit. It is not the tanks job to manage all the enmity, it is a collective effort.

You said it yourself, a collective effort. That means the tank, in this example, as well. I say it time and time again, EVERYONE needs to pull their weight and adjust to each other. NOT 1-3 or 1-7 people adjusting, but the last not. Coddling someone and saying that everyone else needs to adjust to him is wrong. If that ONE person does not feel like putting in the effort to try to hit a middle ground with the 3-7 other players in the group, THEY do not belong there. Again, EVERYONE. not MOST everyone.

[Odett]

Flash works like crap at that level. Flash doesn't even begin to compare with overpower. And if the GLA/PLD needs to flash more that twice per pull then the rest of the group is not helping one bit. It is not the tanks job to manage all the enmity, it is a collective effort.

At that level they are just learning their basic rotation, fast, savge, roh. Just doing that on one mob need about 5 secs. So just attack the target they are atttacking. Do not aggravate the situation with AOE crap

In Stone Vigil, with all the patrols, you usually WILL have to Flash more than twice. All you have to do is press one key/button that does not even break your combo.

For your second paragraph, even if both DPS attack what the tank is attacking (they should, and the tank should mark as well to make things clearer, see? collective effort), if a tank does not Flash more than once, then the healer will inevitably get enmity because that's what heals do, and this will happen much sooner if the healer has to heal more due to the tank not using their cooldowns.

[ispano]

In Stone Vigil, with all the patrols, you usually WILL have to Flash more than twice. All you have to do is press one key/button that does not even break your combo.

Not to mention, Stone Vigil is the first instance where the difficulty really does ramp up. And the tank, especially if minimally geared for the place, can take a lot of damage. Which means more healing, in turn making more enmity for the healer.

[Tiggy]

Flash works like crap at that level. Flash doesn't even begin to compare with overpower. And if the GLA/PLD needs to flash more that twice per pull on low level stuff like tam-tara then the rest of the group is not helping one bit. It is not the tanks job to manage all the enmity, it is a collective effort.

At that level they are just learning their basic rotation, fast, savge, roh. Just doing that on one mob need about 5 secs. So just attack the target they are atttacking. Do not aggravate the situation with AOE crap.

No but it is the tanks job to generate enough on all mobs so that a healer just doing their job of healing doesn't pull hate. That's a very simple and very basic aspect of the job. How can you possibly argue with that? Healing generates hate on every mob in the battle. That is an incontrovertible fact.

Flash working like crap doesn't change the fact that it IS AoE threat at the level you specified. It is enough to hold hate at that level. Who cares if you need to use it twice to get it to work. That's the way the skill is. That's the way it works. We are players have no choice but to use the tools given to us in order to complete content. If it means you flash twice so that healers won't rip hate then you need to flash twice. No amount of opinion or "playing the way I want" is going to change the math running at the core of this game. Math that doesn't give a damn about what's "fun" for you or how you want to play the game.

"The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first."

That goes both ways, you know. What's easier, barking at the healer and DPS telling them to adapt to your lack of enmity management and having three people expecting to adjust to you, who can't perform your role, or realize that you're losing enmity on group pulls and use Flash more than once?

Sadly the argument repeatedly put forth is that the three players should adapt to the poor player. Giving any advice is elitist. Trying to provide tips is elitist. Just let them play how they want. All this regardless of the negative effect the player is having on the group, or how politely you convey the information.

[Foo01]

That goes both ways, you know. What's easier, barking at the healer and DPS telling them to adapt to your lack of enmity management and having three people expecting to adjust to you, who can't perform your role, or realize that you're losing enmity on group pulls and use Flash more than once?

The issue started up when they started to try to tell the tank want to do. The tank was not the one instigating the issue. Sure his skills may be limited or it could be that he was ungergeared. Who knows. But unsolicited advice will often end up with a mess.

Sadly the argument repeatedly put forth is that the three players should adapt to the poor player. Giving any advice is elitist.

It is not sad to have to compensate for their limitations. It is all part and parcel of playing together. Wiping is also part of playing the game and if wipes never happen then a important aspect of why any game is fun is lost. Giving advice is not elitist, ordering people around, even if you know better, however is elitist, because no one has selected you to the leader of the party.

It would be nice if they deferred to a more experienced player, but too many times they are clueless about anything and everything. And that is why the DF and PF are there for them to learn and figure this out. Even if you blurt out the answer for them, they still won't register it because sometimes they don't even know what the question/problem is.

Cut them some slack, go slower. Play for fun, don't stress yourself out or them.

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In Stone Vigil, with all the patrols, you usually WILL have to Flash more than twice. All you have to do is press one key/button that does not even break your combo.

You can separate out the patrol from the mobs. It just need you to go slower. Wait for the patrol to come to the fore and then pull just the patrol. Clear that first then move on to the next mob. It is not that hard, just be patient, go slower.

Even on Brayflox HM, it is ok to pull 4 mobs or 2, if the healer or tank can't handle more. It is Brayflox HM and not Brayflox SR.

[ispano]

The issue started up when they started to try to tell the tank want to do. The tank was not the one instigating the issue. Sure his skills may be limited or it could be that he was ungergeared. Who knows. But unsolicited advice will often end up with a mess.

Then that person needs to grow up. Unsolicited or not, as long as it's done properly, ie without harassment, it's meant to benefit the party. The person playing "poorly" is affecting the party, not just themselves.

[Tiggy]

Then that person needs to grow up. Unsolicited or not, as long as it's done properly, ie without harassment, it's meant to benefit the party. The person playing "poorly" is affecting the party, not just themselves.

Exactly. If the players giving advice did it in a respectful non-harassing manner then the player receiving the tip has no reasons to get bent out of shape over it. They are learning how to play still and they are not a master of their domain, and they should have the self awareness to know that they do not know everything there is to know about this game. Someone who is completely incapable of receiving advice probably shouldn't be playing with other people in this kind of environment. In this instance one person trying to help a poor player is at worst effecting one player. That poor player is effecting 3-7 other players. They need to get over themselves and accept that they are part of a team, and the team will only succeed when everyone works together.

[Cap75]

If the PLD is using flash and doing his ROH combo on single targets, what else do you want? A level 42 PLD (level synced or not) in stone vigil does NOT have very many options. Try sleeping the other mobs and assist him. Don't rush him with large AOE bombs. It is elitist attitudes like this that is problem. The elitist attitude always point the fingers at someone else instead of adapting themselves first.

Are you contractually obligated to use the word elitist in every one of your posts lol? Oh, and flashes plus rotating your aggro combo through multiple mobs is how it's done.

[Odett]

The issue started up when they started to try to tell the tank want to do. The tank was not the one instigating the issue. Sure his skills may be limited or it could be that he was ungergeared. Who knows. But unsolicited advice will often end up with a mess.

This is exactly what I told a lv 42 PLD in Stone Vigil earlier today after he totally went off on the entire party. We tried our hardest to give him good advice in the most polite manner. He was using flash to pull and never using more than his 1-2-3 aggro chain on a single target in a group pull. Healer ended up tanking more of the dungeon than him. He started calling us backseat players and other stuff so we left him to his own devices. I eagerly await when he hits 50 and starts crying about elitists everywhere.

They tried telling the tank what to do because the healer was pulling enmity. If the tank was undergeared like you're assuming, then they should have used Flash more, since the healer had to heal more. This wasn't even a DPS issue, it was the healer getting enmity because the tank could not keep it, and if the healer does not heal, then the group wipes. Not every monster can be slept, like ispano pointed out, and that includes the Dragon Aevis, which is the hardest-hitting trash pull in SV.

They told the tank how to fix their enmity issue. You keep talking about everything being a collective effort, yet you insist that advice should not be given unless asked for, and that means having people adjust themselves to work around the poorest player (which was clearly the case in this situation). In order for a group to work in the most effective way, the least amount of adjustments should be made for that to happen. Suggesting to a tank that they should Flash more than once is a significantly smaller adjustment than having three people working around someone who refuses to press a button more than once.

[Tiggy]

Giving advice is not elitist, ordering people around, even if you know better, however is elitist, because no one has selected you to the leader of the party.

This is literally what I've been trying to say the whole thread. Giving advice. That's all I've ever been saying. However, if you look back at the thread, many people here have actually said ANY advice at all is too much. Even kindly given well worded tips that try very hard not to insult the player are STILL too much.

When playing, regardless of the skill of the other players, every dungeon or boss fight is always done on the condition that each player must play around and mesh with the ability of the other players. That's the basics of teamwork that MMO's are so good at using. The whole "work around that player" argument strikes me as completely ridiculous since everything we ever do in this game is working around other players. It's when a player is unworkable that we have issues.