I don't understand...

[Foo01]

... The problem is rude players and players who could be doing a lot better but do not do so out of sheer laziness ...

Stop with the assumotion that they are lazy or rude.

... Also, from my experience, a lot of the time it is the player given the advice that becomes rude...

Advice that is not asked for and comes across as a bossy command is likely get a poor reception. Perhaps the so called advice was rude to them. Rude is subjective.

This is a multiplayer game, and if you choose to purposely play in a way that hinders others, then YOU (not you directly, this is a general statement) are the problem.

Players deliberately causing wipes over and over are trolls. They need to be reported.

"Hinder" is too vague and subjective. Not optimizing is not hindering, because that is dependent on skill level and experience. Don't confuse trolls with players playing in earnest. So if we exclude the trolls from the discussion, then whole notion of "correct rotation" is bogus, different players will play a different style and that is totally ok.

Only the elitist insist on one optimized way and force everyone down that path. And it is the elitists that force the speed runs, because to them that is the only path of "correctness" and obviously to do so you must do the "correct optimized rotations."

.... purposely harming the progress of a run is selfish and inconsiderate ...

Only troll purposely harm the progress. Going slower is not harming the progress. Watching cutscenes for the first time is not being inconsiderate. Taking detours to grab loot is not harming. Not skipping mobs is not being inconsiderate. And not optimizing is not harming nor is it being inconsiderate.

To an elitist such talk blasphemy because everyone must follow their narrow strict path. That is not what any game is about much less a MMO where the whole point is to let people be free to be who their imagination takes them. Some them even want to be trolls, but that is why they get vote kicked, reported, and get to play by themselves.

[Gormogon]

Players deliberately causing wipes over and over are trolls. They need to be reported.

This is the bane of hard content. They should just make everything easy that way all this drama goes away.

[Foo01]

Players deliberately causing wipes over and over are trolls. They need to be reported.

This is the bane of hard content. They should just make everything easy that way all this drama goes away.

Player can wipe on hard content over and over but they are NOTdeliberately doing it. Only trolls goes and deliberately cause wipes.

Getting rid of hard content wont get rid of the trolls, they have caused wipes in Toto-rak, Haukke normal, Qarn, etc. and they have great fun at everyone else expense. Player need to be more patient, more persistent, and more discerning, but that may be too high bar for the elitist.

BTW drama is also part and parcel of the enterainment package. Some like it some don't, but it wouldn't be the same without it.

[Gormogon]

snip.

It wont but it will end all this dilemma regarding bad people that players seem to have issue with when doing content.

I've been in guilds with people that are in their late 60's that can't react to situational awareness at all and need to be carried through certain portions of content. Players that are 1-hand and can player better than others. Lazy players with real life titles and money that pay for their position in a FC and can get everything handed to them. Good players that suffer from latency issues due to location and service. Players that are parents that want to unwind and play but within minutes of finally sitting down to play they real life interferes with the game.

Some of those people you categorize as "trolls" aren't all really "trolls". Not every bad player is playing bad because they are out to deny you your content and get it a kick from it.

[Foo01]

Some of those people you categorize as "trolls" aren't all really "trolls". Not every bad player is playing bad because they are out to deny you your content and get it a kick from it.

I don't call people bad players. Only the elitist are the bad players. Trolls on the other hand do exist but are very rare, but they laugh at you when they cause a wipe. They will be gleefully celebrating that score, because to them that is the same as touch down or home run. I give all players the benefit of the doubt until they reveal themselves.

I'll be the first to admit that my patience is not infinite nor is my time. And when you wiped 15 time with 5 minutes remaining and looks like no chance for success I've elected to vote abandon, but that has also very rarely happened. What has happened way more often is the elitist that rage quits after the 1st or 2nd wipe. But they are not trolls, just obnoxious elitist speed runners and I run into them rage quitting at least twice to three times a week because someone on the team is bit undergeared, new, and caused a wipe or two.

[Gormogon]

I don't call people bad players. Only the elitist are the bad players. Trolls on the other hand do exist but are very rare, but they laugh at you when they cause a wipe. They will be gleefully celebrating that score, because to them that is the same as touch down or home run. I give all players the benefit of the doubt until they reveal themselves.

I'll be the first to admit that my patience is not infinite nor is my time. And when you wiped 15 time with 5 minutes remaining and looks like no chance for success I've elected to vote abandon, but that has also very rarely happened. What has happened way more often is the elitist that rage quits after the 1st or 2nd wipe. But they are not trolls, just obnoxious elitist speed runners and I run into them rage quitting at least twice to three times a week because someone on the team is bit undergeared, new, and caused a wipe or two.

Now that makes more sense and I will then so agree.

I'm not sure about you but if I do notice someone intentionally playing horribly I do use a list and with a reason why I have them in there so if I ever group with them again months later I can see if they have improved or not. For the most part it's a useless list since most of those players seem to have latency issue and just want to play regardless of it. Yet knowing ahead of time that they have the potential to disconnect or lag behind helps me a lot in taking into consideration my course of action through out the fight. I've improvised a lot during DF groups and stalled the fight long enough to have the mobs and bosses drop.

Yet as far as reporting trolls it's truly ever justified if they are pulling additional groups ahead of the tank on purpose to cause wipes especially when the tank or healer tell them to stop. That is harassment in comparison to some of the stories I hear of here in FFXIV. I haven't seen that happen here in FFXIV but I've seen it in other MMO's.

snip.

For the most part if the person doesn't ask for help on their rotation then it's better not to bother with advice. Especially when you aren't playing their same role and trying to justify the advice with, "I main that job" ends up sounding very rude and disrespectful.

One of the things I have noticed in DF is that if someone else is playing the same DPS role and you through your own rotation and damage amaze the other player then they will be more willing to accept advice on their job.

Some players need to understand that if they aren't really a people person then they can't expect someone to willingly listen and follow by forcing advice.

[Odett]

snip

I think we're just misunderstanding each other here. I'm not saying that players who don't perform well are lazy. I'm saying that the problem are players who don't perform well BECAUSE they're lazy.

"Hey, try to do this...", or "this is how to avoid that" is how I phrase my advise, if someone thinks that is rude, the I'm really not sure what to tell them.

What's your definition of deliberately causing wipes? If a Dragoon is spamming Full Thrust in a DPS race and the party loses, and I tell them their correct rotation, and they say something rude and still Full Thrust, is that deliberately causing a wipe to you? Even in a scenario where it's not causing a wipe, that player is harming the run. If after you tell them their rotation and they make an attempt to implement it, then that is progress and good for them. If they keep doing what they were doing before, then that is selfish, not because I want a dungeon to end faster, but because that person is not making an honest effort to be a better part of the team, and they will go on and step into more dungeons and do the same exact thing.

Rotations are not written in stone, but there are skills that are intended to be used. If you're not keeping HT, Chaos Thrust, Disembowel, Phleb as a DRG, or DK, TS, ToD, and Demolish as MNK, then you have things to work on. Not using those skills is not "a player's style", if they are working on getting their rotation, then that's good, but purposely refusing to do so is not ok. A healer won't refuse to use Medica, and a Tank won't forego using Flash or RoH because it's not their style. Using your essential skills is not min/maxing. Now, a player's own style is stuff like not using Demolish on a monster that's about to die and instead using it on the next target, or using ToD on the 2nd mob because you know it won't have it's full effect on the first mob. As long as you are using your essential skills, that's great. I will min/max, but won't expect anyone else to.

I never said that harming progress is going slower (by this I assume you mean pulling less mobs? a tank should always pull what they're comfortable with), or watching cutscenes, and neither is taking detours from loot.

[Foo01]

I think we're just misunderstanding each other here. I'm not saying that players who don't perform well are lazy. I'm saying that the problem are players who don't perform well BECAUSE they're lazy...

I know I don't use macros, and obviously I will miss click sometimes and sometimes when I click it didn't register etc. So I am not optimizing and I've gotten suggestions in the form of macros from other players. So am I being lazy? I just rather play the game instead of the game playing itself.

So lazy and rude etc. are very fuzzy subjective notions. I just rather extend to other players the benefit of the doubt and be more inclusive. The only thing that won't be tolerated are clear and obvious trolls that causes wipes over and over and are happy about it. I report those, and in the past 3 months I've only had to do that twice. But I've had to report elitist harassing other members of the party with nasty language at least 10 times in that time same span, and I don't even bother reporting the rage quits which are a lot more of because they are entitled to leave if they want.

So my statistic from my own dungeon runs clearly bears this out. The failure to complete dungeons is rarely from player failing when they playing in earnest. The large majority of it is from rage quits from speed runners. When you run brayflox HM on the duty finder often enough you will see this pattern. The trolls are even rarer then then fails with newbies that can't sort out garuda normal or kill ifrit normal's nail in time.

Don't even bother arguing with the person you're quoting.

Doesn't look like you are doing a very good ignoring me or following your own advice.

[Odett]

snip

I likely won't bother replying to you after this because your counterarguments are filled with things I did not talk about. I have not said a single thing about macros, and you keep saying that because you're not optimizing, you're being lazy, even though I have repeated what I consider lazy, which is NOT not optimizing.


Your macro comment was also very misinformed and confusing. Macros don't play the game for you and I don't know where you got that from, or if you're making it up. Macros are very helpful in a fight where you're rotating stuns with other players (notice how I said helpful, and not necessary) because they'll let other players know that you stunned. If by macros that "play the game for you", you're referring to using two skills with one macro, that's a useless macro because it gets in the way of weaving.

Lazy and rude are not fuzzy/subjective motions. Refusing to play better when you have the ability to do so is lazy. Rude can be more subjective, but you and I both know that "hey, let me give you advice" is not a rude statement.

Extend the benefit of the doubt? You're acting as if people that make suggestions are looking at other players like hounds, just waiting for them to mess up so they can waltz in and speak to them. It doesn't work like that. When you have a lv 50 job and are proficient at it, it is EXTREMELY easy to tell wen someone is doing something they're not supposed to be doing.

We all have an infinite capacity to learn. I've seen that a lot of green lv 50s make the mistake of thinking that they know enough about their class to not take advice. No one should ever stop taking advice, and the earlier we put our egos aside and at least consider the advice of someone, the sooner we'll all be better players.

[Foo01]

.... Refusing to play better when you have the ability to do so is lazy....

How many players are always playing to their max all the time? That is just way to stressful. If I wanted to do that and for for max APM or something I'd be playing SC2 or SC/BW where maxing it out means you actually have a shot a beating the other guy or the other team. But that is a high stress game and your hands are shaking afterwards.

It is not being lazy to take a good enough relaxed approach to this. Many players just want to do that. For example:

This is my first MMO and I really like it but I am so confused so if I suck now and suck at level 50 it not for lack of effort but people taking a fun game world and trying to make it so serious just turns me off to the whole thing, the real world is serious but can l please just have some stress free fun away from that

We all have an infinite capacity to learn...

That is hyperbole and as much as I wish it were so. People got limited capacity not least of which their time is limited and their lifespans are limited, the number of braincells are limited. It is very much finite and not infinite. I am happy you have such an hopeful attitude about learning, but fact remains very few people are even able to max the limited brain capacity they got.

Additionally, people should not have to be subjected to unwarranted and unwanted advice. Sure you are well meaning, but just try to tell a new parent how to raise their kid especially coming from the mother-in-law. That is itching for a fight. Good luck with that. It is OK if things happen at a more relaxed pace. It is sooner or later, not just sooner.

---------------

...
Your macro comment was also very misinformed and confusing. Macros don't play the game for you and I don't know where you got that from...

Macros is first step to automation and taken to an extreme it is a bot. I do software for a living and if I wanted to I can code up a bot to play for me and it would have perfect optimized rotations. The battles are a scripted and the solutions are finite so all you need to account for it the time delays and latency issues. That would be perfectly optimzied and perfectly no fun. So what is optimization to one is lazy to another because it is not optimized enough. So lazy is very subjective. Which gets back to the OPs original question why doesn't everyone care about their performance?

To which I say they do, but not to the extreme level the elitist demand or what he demands. To each their own. As long as they are not trolls, happy gaming, ok? Play for fun, not to cause stress.