Cash shops: Whats wrong with you?

[HakuroDK]

snip

Not gonna lie, but that sounds kinda mean-spirited and closed-minded. "If you want this feature in this game that I don't like, go play this other game that has that feature and stop bothering us with it." is all I'm hearing. Maybe you could explain it to me better in a reply if I'm not getting the message there, but I just don't see any legitimate downside to a non-P2W cash shop, especially when there are those of us who want to contribute to the game's success more than we already are.

[skaterger]

Not gonna lie, but that sounds kinda mean-spirited and closed-minded. "If you want this feature in this game that I don't like, go play this other game that has that feature and stop bothering us with it." is all I'm hearing. Maybe you could explain it to me better in a reply if I'm not getting the message there, but I just don't see any legitimate downside to a non-P2W cash shop, especially when there are those of us who want to contribute to the game's success more than we already are.

Yeah like I said that was crude and kind of a low blow and I apologize if it offended anyone.

You are already indirectly contributing to the game's success by subbing every month aren't you? If you want to do more, you can make a personal donation I'm sure SE wouldn't reject that The biggest problem with the cash shop is that many players are uncomfortable with the idea of one and it can push many players over the edge and do more harm than good and I'm sure we would not like to see it come to that. Let me give you another example, Wow's blizzard store. Initially, they only had QOL things like name changes and server transfer but not long after they added vanity things like pets and mounts and unsurprisingly these mounts were much better looking than the ones that came in the game. What this did was segregate those that could afford/wanted the mount and those that could not/did not want to. It also led to a loss of confidence in the company as players wondered if in subsequent patches, the nicest items would only come from the cash shop.

I'm not making this up as the evidence is all in the Wow forums around the year 2010-2011. Many players were pissed at that time but thought that was the furthest that blizzard would go but lo and behold, they now have added a level 90 boost in their cash shop. Would you consider that P2W? I would say so. Objectively a cash shop might not be such a bad thing, but player's experiences with other f2p games might cause a stigma which would casue them to leave should a cash shop ever materialize in this game. I would very likely leave if a cash shop was ever implemented.

[Amberion]

Bunch of stuff.

Pot, meet kettle. You are OK with CS as long as it does not effect your game style. Yet don't care if it has effect on any one who plays for differently reasons then raiding.

Let's say you have this RPer or crafter that don't do any end-game fighting. To him, Potion of Doom +8 would have minimal effect, but for a raider it would be p2w.

But I guess that only a raiders opinion should matter in a roleplaying game?

[Skull_Angel]

Pot, meet kettle. You are OK with CS as long as it does not effect your game style. Yet don't care if it has effect on any one who plays for differently reasons then raiding.

Let's say you have this RPer or crafter that don't do any end-game fighting. To him, Potion of Doom +8 would have minimal effect, but for a raider it would be p2w.

But I guess that only a raiders opinion should matter in a roleplaying game?

Crafters not being able to make every vanity item would be a small issue if they had access to recipes that were more comparable to raid level (doesn't have to be equal) gear. Currently this is one of the biggest issue for crafters, another being the ease of acquisition of equivalent non-crafted gear for players.

RPers wanting in-game access to vanity is a very valid point though, thanks for bringing that up.

[HakuroDK]

Pot, meet kettle. You are OK with CS as long as it does not effect your game style. Yet don't care if it has effect on any one who plays for differently reasons then raiding.

Let's say you have this RPer or crafter that don't do any end-game fighting. To him, Potion of Doom +8 would have minimal effect, but for a raider it would be p2w.

But I guess that only a raiders opinion should matter in a roleplaying game?

You are making a LOOOT of inaccuracies and assumptions here, broski.

First, "pot, meet kettle" is an expression referring to hypocrisy. Being okay with something and not caring about something are almost literally the same thing, which is the very antithesis of being a hypocrite.

Second, it's not hypocritical of me to say that I don't think a cash shop is gamebreaking because you assume that I'm a raider and I don't care about roleplayers or crafters, because it's a wildly inaccurate and downright false assumption. Roleplaying is actually my preferred style of gameplay. If you want, I can actually link you to my Hydaelyn RP Community profile (which, in fairness, has not been updated in a while). I even belong to the Order of the Sword and Rose FC, which is a well-known RP FC.

Third, gear that amplifies stats would affect crafters and gatherers just as much as it would affect raiders. They all rely on stats.

Fourth, Roleplayers--at least decent people who are roleplayers--don't criticize or judge others OOC for how they dress, and especially when it would come to various articles of Cash Shop clothing, all it would do is give some variety, if anything, to the appearance of a character and would have absolutely no advantage whatsoever to that person's personality, backstory, RP style, character interactions, or anything else. In fact, saying that roleplayers wearing cash shop items are somehow better than those that don't wear cash shop items just seems silly to me.

Never make assumptions, especially when trying to say how bad something you don't like is. All it ends up doing is make you look like a dick, and no one wants to see that in public.

[Amberion]

Snip.

Pot kettle was in regards to your post saying someone was close-minded. And as for you being an RPer, I really only know what your posts said. And in those, yes it seemed to be hypocritical of you. At least does to me, maybe I just interpret your post in a way you didn't mean..

And your other posts where like this quote:

Like I said, as long as it's flooded with stuff that doesn't increase stats or unlock dungeons, quests, and other related content

It looks like you are OK with it as long as it's not related to combat.

In fact, saying that roleplayers wearing cash shop items are somehow better than those that don't wear cash shop items just seems silly to me.

Not better, but they lock a style behind a paywall. Meaning you have to pay cash to RP it.

[HakuroDK]

Pot kettle was in regards to your post saying someone was close-minded.

I'll explain myself.

The person I called closed-minded outright refused to hear anything on the subject of a cash shop, immediately calling it bad, and told someone that, if they like a cash shop so much, they can go somewhere else.

The textbook definition of being closed-minded is: obstinately resistant to argument or to unfamiliar or unwelcome ideas. Source: Merriam-Webster


Which, on the subject of the definition of closed-mindedness, it is often used out of context of its actual meaning to refer to anything that disagrees with anyone else regardless of how well they listen to the opposing viewpoint, much like the word irony is often used to define a coincidence rather than its actual definition which refers to something happening contrary to or despite certain conditions dictating otherwise.

Not once was I ever closed-minded about anything. All I have ever stressed since the start is that I lack the understanding as to why a Cash Shop is such a bad thing, and only one person during this whole argument has ever given me a valid argument against cash shops. I even liked his post, quoted it, and said "This is how you argue your point." A closed-minded person would NEVER acknowledge someone who disagrees with them as having a valid point.

It looks like you are OK with it as long as it's not related to combat.

If you'll notice, while I said dungeons (which are, indeed, related to combat), I also mentioned quests and other related content, which could be pretty much everything from combat to crafting to gathering to even dancing, as a few quest chains in 2.2 have done. I don't think content that tells a story should be locked to anyone. I only made the distinction to dungeons because, if I were to say "I don't want content that increases stats or unlocks content", people would automatically assume, for some reason, that I thought that buying any cash shop item would "unlock" it as "content", and I wanted to avoid that at whatever cost, but apparently, I still got misunderstood. Again.

Not better, but they lock a style behind a paywall. Meaning you have to pay cash to RP it.

Now I'm normally one who gets obsessed with vanity-related stuff, but with this... is how someone looks such a barrier to RP? Because other than certain FCs who have a dress code, I don't really get that. And if you're thinking about things like approachability, that's not it either. I'm on Balmung, an RP server. Every week or so, I wander into the Quicksand in Ul'dah and take a seat, wearing my normal vanity (seen in my sig below). Not a single time did I ever get approached by anyone ever to start an RP. Probably because I'm a Roegadyn and people tend to be more fond of approaching scantily-clad Miqo'te or any non-Roe female characters than anyone who looks even remotely interesting, but that's just my point of view.

I just don't feel like you've proven your point to me at all.

[Malamasala]

Now I'm normally one who gets obsessed with vanity-related stuff, but with this... is how someone looks such a barrier to RP?

Not a barrier, but it may be their goal of the game. I personally play only for the vanity. You can charge me 10 dollars per dungeon entry, and I'd just say "Well, I won't go into dungeons then. Don't care." Other people here would surely drive their fist through the screen and break their FF14 discs in pieces over such a cash and grab of dungeon players.

Forcing anyone to pay money to enjoy their part of the game, is a big no-no. It should be free to do dungeons, free to level, free to vanity, free to chat, etc. With the restriction of a subscription fee, of course.

Hence why you can only sell things you can grind. To allow people to say "Hell no to those prices, I'll go farm my own item". At the same time allowing people to say "To hell with this grind, I'm buying my item so I can move on."

Options = Everyone is a winner.

I actually told TERA how to become the next big title on the market, which did include a lot of options to cater to all their customers. But they just told me they know which customers they want, and every different customer from that was undesired and should just leave. Which they did, and TERA failed and went F2P. Today most of my suggestions have been implemented, which is pretty funny.

[ReiszRie]

Not a barrier, but it may be their goal of the game. I personally play only for the vanity. You can charge me 10 dollars per dungeon entry, and I'd just say "Well, I won't go into dungeons then. Don't care." Other people here would surely drive their fist through the screen and break their FF14 discs in pieces over such a cash and grab of dungeon players.

Forcing anyone to pay money to enjoy their part of the game, is a big no-no. It should be free to do dungeons, free to level, free to vanity, free to chat, etc. With the restriction of a subscription fee, of course.

Hence why you can only sell things you can grind. To allow people to say "Hell no to those prices, I'll go farm my own item". At the same time allowing people to say "To hell with this grind, I'm buying my item so I can move on."

Options = Everyone is a winner.

I actually told TERA how to become the next big title on the market, which did include a lot of options to cater to all their customers. But they just told me they know which customers they want, and every different customer from that was undesired and should just leave. Which they did, and TERA failed and went F2P. Today most of my suggestions have been implemented, which is pretty funny.

The issue with such train of thought is that

1. the player does not take into account what the game is and isn't, is the game a vanity dress up game? is the game a dungeon raid game? you force your way into changing a game into what it wasn't designed to be in the first place

2. the first point leads us to the second point, if the game was designed to be a dungeon raid game, vanity isn't and wouldn't be their primary focus when it comes to content. What I've seen here is that players who are against cash shops often have the misconception that whatever that is offered in the cash-shops are originally meant to be given free. This point might have some credence but chances are, it isn't, for P2P games, making cash shops the primary revenue source isn't paramount, hence there isn't a significant desire to profit heavily from a cash shop and risk negative reaction. So, whatever were to be offered in the cash shops are developed and made possible only with the intention of using the revenue source from cash shops to justify the investment.

this is a win win situation.

no content ever comes "free" all content are developed via the allocation of limited resources, and it isn't "fair" to have players who couldn't care less about significant vanity gear content to be indirectly "paying" for them, hence a cash shop to offer vanity for those who wants them and remove the burden of cost from those who doesn't

another way of implementation would be to limit certain vanity gear to purchase only for a period of time (e.g 3-6 months) and will be made available to all in the next major content patch.

people are against the name of "cash shop" not the concept of it, the fact that you get unique minions available only via the purchase of the CE and OST already proves that people have no issues with unique vanity items that are "purchase only" and not available in-game.