"Friendlies"

[Kantei]

Thank you for bringing this here and not engaging this any further in the Linkshell Directory, its disrespectful to bring up your disagreements with my Event in something that has nothing to do with it. The LS directory is a great tool, and the OP updates it pretty quickly, best not to fill it with trash talk. Thanks for the free bump also.

As you can see, I submitted this idea for peer review long ago. I really didn't see much nay saying a few months ago. Friendlies is a carebear term for practice matches I picked up with a group of friends long ago. All in all, we did intend to have a clear separation of what practice matches and win trading are considered. I was pretty clear and transparent, if we had intentions of cheating the system, I wouldn't of brought it up, and kept my linkshell a small, silent thing.

If general outrage followed when I first post this a month or so ago, I wouldn't of used the event O.o;;

With that being said, I hope you are here to actually have a conversation this time. The last conversation we had, you expanded to the internet slang, Win Trading, to define what my linkshell does. Then you reduced the term KITing, to also suit your needs. This entire situation, boils down to me not liking how you change definitions to suit your arguments, nor having you call my linkshell mates cheaters.

If any poster here intends to do what this guy did, and plug up their ears and simply say "Playing by different rules is win trading, end of story" consider your opinion ignored. I am here to have rational conversations.

Consider this topic up for peer review again. If the only opinion found here is that we are cheaters, although you can clearly see in former posts that many think this activity is harmless. I will stop using them as a social tool for my linkshell. I also, cannot stress this enough, my linkshell is still not cheaters, place all the blame on me for clouding a subject with good intentions. Either way, don't bring anyone else into this, my linkshell features about 30 hard core PvPers, and 150 casual PvPers. All but 5 having positive things to say about the event after taking part in them.

I'm the only one to blame if this practice is not kosher. I made the rules, and I am the one who enforces them.

Ok, lets get the ball rolling.

What is win trading. Let's define the what the internet slang term, Win trading is:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=Win+Trading

This definition defines it as guaranteeing a top spot, on a leaderboard, ranking system, or other possibilities. In FFXIV ARR, we can consider this rank 40. And also avoiding other players who aren't win trading.

My event, does not provide max ranks, nor is it intended to(More on that later). We do not avoid other players in ques, we commonly get matched up against others, and to this day, have never lost against another server when connected to other players while running friendlies. We have always rolled them out. We find it funny when it happens, and also have a ton of fun doing it. Most players engaged in Friendlies, are wearing PvE armor.

The definition does cover agreeing to win or lose, but again, the slang term win trader, is used to define cheaters who agree to trade wins until they achieve a certain level of progression. We have no intention of getting people to a certain point, then making them win/loss until we get our rewards.

Not a single member who joins my event, Friendlies. Has the intention of losing, ever. I simply force them to lose at times to avoid other issues (More on that later).

http://wow.joystiq.com/2007/11/27/wi...p-arena-spots/

This blog, focuses on how people engage in Win trading.
It covers using alts, and paying people to take losses, in the effort to gain a leaderboard, or ranking advantage.

My linkshell does not engage in that, nor does my event.

The most important issue to me, and my linkshell, is covered in this blog.

"As usual with cheats and exploits, I just don't see the fun of Win Trading. A real win is a sense of accomplishment."

My linkshell, has a very, very good time in Friendlies. Aka they have a lot of fun. They earn real wins, against real players, none of which, have signed up to lose.

While Pug PvP is fun in its own right, most find friendlies to be the superior experience, why? Because they are focusing on something besides earning ranks and gaining armor.

That thing, is each others respect, friendship, rivalry, and focus towards a like minded goal, getting better at PvP, and having fun while doing it. Ranks, Armor, and personal gain are not a focus for this event, 90% of the people signing up for friendlies, are between rank 1-20. They barely understand what PvP armor is, what morale is, and we use PvE/Naked gear more often than not, because only about 30% of our shell has above i70 PvP armor.

Most just want to learn how to play the class in PvP, or fight against us with their friends, without being harassed by ragers, botters, hackers, and people who out gear them. Most linkshell members, talk about tactics and earning their next PvP skill, because it may be "fun" to play with.

While the most recent review is: Glorified win trading(The aim of friendlies is promoting group play versus solo ques, and attracting new blood to PvP, we don't hand them wins, we enourage them to earn them, but don't punish them for going up against people with more experience than them.). We may be easy going, and full of naive players who don't even know about these issues. It doesn't change the fact that everyone actually means what they say in my shell. They just want to have fun, and enjoy PvP. I sniff out those who are using us, and they get kicked O.o

We have 3 rules in my shell:
No carry selling in the linkshell. It is not an advertisement tool.
No win trading, as the net slang defines it. That is flat out cheating.
Borrowed from MVP' their only real rule: "Don't be a **** to our members"

When the issue came up in the shell it went down like this:
"We'll your kid's games are fun and all, but I'm here to gain exp, if we are doing friendlies, why don't we just win trade?"
"Because I don't allow our members to do that, it's cheating the community."
"Ehh you guys are a bunch of idiots, I don't have time for this type of thing, if anyone wants to get serious exp, send me a tell."
/kicked from linkshell

He broke almost every rule there, spoke to members in a demeaning way, encouraged real win trading, and used my shell to advertise something I don't allow. I have been pretty clear about my stance on win trading, and I won't speak for all members of my linkshell, but I know a few of our members would of engaged at win trading if they weren't in our shell at this point. It's only out of respect of our linkshell and its members that a select few have just accepted the fact they need to play this game legit to stay a part of what we are doing. They lack a bit of impulse control, but won't risk it.

5 members have left the shell, after seeing friendlies, and dubbing it Win trading.

They left of their own accord, I got their feed back, thanked them for it, and let it go. Most were between the ranks of 3-6.

Amada you would be the 5th. In our situation, I didn't care about the feedback. I was already pretty salty about RL stuff before logging on, hit the self destruct button over you calling my members cheaters lol. Rare day and event for me, either way, when I retell the story, I say I was in the wrong there O.o I ended 5 months of 214 members hard work.

You brought up that you've been playing MMO's a long time, and that win trading is just win trading O.o I've been playing MMO's for a long time, UO, EQ, Dark Age of Camelot, Planet side, FFXI (10 years soooo list gets short after that), Defiance, FFXIV: Arr in that order O.o;

Before MMO's, I played couch co-op O.o. My event, is born out of what I found in couch co-op. A friend, a rival, someone to talk to, and someone to push me to greater levels of game play.

I will post the full Friendlies rule set in another post, to be as clear and transparent as possible. Again, this whole issue is up for peer review, as it has been for a while.

But the part you take issue with Amada, is balance matches.

To be clear, Balance matches are matches where the winner of a set of 6 or 10, intentionally lose.

There are three modifiers for Balance matches:

Do people want to duel?
Do people want to get back to PvP quickly?
Does someone have to leave soon?

We do 1 v 1 duels during balance matches, mainly tank versus tank, ranged versus ranged, Melee versus melee all at the same time at different parts of the arena. Healers stay out of it. We also set up Melee versus ranged for example, to improve and condition you for when those situations will arise in Frontlines/Arena. The Winning team of overall set still loses on purpose in the end, so we can get back to normal PvP.

If people don't want to duel, we beat on a team that doesn't fight back, looks like win trading, but we do it to quickly get back to normal length PvP O.o.

If someone has to go, they leave, we don't balance out matches. No one cares, The point isn't to balance at all (But its still needed, more on that later) O.o

Many, but not all, Friendlies events, feature no balance matches o.o;;. Both teams naturally go 5W/5L fighting at full force, quite often. No need for balance, we all know each other, we have figured each other out, and we keep adjusting, and adjusting, and have great matches. The best friendlies, the ones that incite the most LS chat and actually gets the casual pvpers really into it, are the ones that don't need balance matches, because th)ey are all just out there kicking booty.

But, that of course, is a perfect situation that happens commonly.

What also happens commonly is 5 W/4 L 1 B. Usually involves dueling during the balance match.

What also happens commonly is 5 W/3 2 B. Usually involves dueling during balance matches.

What also happens commonly is 4W/1 loss 0B, because someone had to go.

Balance matches aren't the point of our event, if they were, we would win trade O.o.

So, wtf is my point if balance matches have very little bearing on why we run Practice matches? Because this is an MMO, and we are a linkshell.

My intentions are fair and balanced rules, that cater to many types. Balance matches, are intended to snuff out linkshell drama before it even happens. My goal with my linkshell is to have fun, find rivals who I can play with and against, and try to keep the members engaged in the game until the release of the first expansion.

That is a little hard to pull off if you don't agree to split the rewards before hand. Same way players who want your pop your drop rules, and players who want split cash rules on Endgame drops never get along.

We ran into some trouble at the start of friendlies, we didn't have balance matches yet. We ran many matches without ever balancing, tried to switch members to encourage balancing, it didn't work very well, and knocked math out of range for fast ques.

One instance:
7/8 of the people who signed up for friendlies were there with intentions of teaching their WHM friend how to PvP Heal. One of our members, just wanted to get exp quickly. He kept killing the healer out right with his level 26 tank PvP skills, we suggest to him that maybe he should focus on the other teams tank until this Healer actually gets a little bit of combat experience, because the 6 seconds you allow it to live per turn, isn't really giving it a chance to learn the bare basics.

He says he's just here for the exp, when 7/8 of us there were trying to get a friend into PvP. He signed up for the wrong event. I'm not running a noob farming mill O.o.

Balance matches, after a few different dramas, were created to make everyone care more about the results of following the spirit of the event, versus just simply using it for the insta ques O.o.

Haven't had much drama since, besides when someone starts pointing the win traders finger. Everyone of my linkshell members signs up for full length matches, for equal amounts of exp, with no intention of losing. It's just that I force one side to lose as per my rules to avoid BS that has happened in the past. Again, I am building a social PvP linkshell, not a pug match free for all.

We have a website, we keep track of our daily events, let people sign up in advance to group up with other people O.o. Your judging my event without ever taking part of it, and your going out on an limb to label us as win traders.

Again, not sure what you are doing going into the LS Directory and labeling us as Win traders when you haven't even seen how the event plays out O.o. You talking about 1 aspect of our rule set O.o

Again, we don't engage in this event for any of those reasons listed O.o. And the reason for our event coming under attack, Balance matches, is seen as a form of boosting? They aren't used 100% of the time, not even 50%, not even 25%.

If we are Win traders, we are the worst in the world O.o I've made it to roughly 80% of all friendlies ran, well cause I run them O.o, and its taken me 5 months to get to 32.

Of my PvP matches, 2104, 80% of them were ran in 30/40's PvP in solo que and group quing with my linkshell mates in the first three months.

Then they broke group exp and the PvP ques.

Then I couldn't get people to group up anymore, then I started losing interest in PvP solo que lol, even it being the superior form of exp.

I was level 26 when we ran our first set of friendlies, 2 months later, making 80% of them, and solo queing non-stop, I am 32.

Not exactly moving too quickly here.

Either way, I just set out to make a fair PvP event people enjoy. And it turns out they really do. Hasn't felt like win trading yet O.o. The definition doesn't really line up with what we are doing, nor do our intentions really mimic win trading at all O.o.

I'll submit the full rule set we employ the next time I sit down on a PC, but now, cast judgement how you will lol. But don't act like I didn't already submit this to peer review once.

But if you sit in judgment, you are supposed to consider intent, motives, and the harm done when sentencing it lol.

All in all, I am still just utterly shocked people are trying to expand the term win trader to things that have nothing to do with gaining an edge over the community, from OP on, the tool called friendlies is meant to be used to recruit new members, run a balanced event without LS drama, and continue to grow O.o

Find a better solution for making it rewarding, fair and balanced for 8 members to PvP each other without built up resentment, and I'll listen to it.

[tehomegaking]

jesus christ man whos gonna read that? glorified win trading, wall of text or no, simple as that.

[Zerotrocity]

jesus christ man whos gonna read that? glorified win trading, wall of text or no, simple as that.

LOL that cracked me up

[Kantei]

Yeah me to and some one will.

They read the original wall of text

[zulu_kulu]

jesus christ man whos gonna read that? glorified win trading, wall of text or no, simple as that.

Yeah me to and some one will.

They read the original wall of text

i read it and the balance matches to me is win trading is it simplest form. you give the other team 5 wins if your team is beating them too badly.that is win trading man.
sure you arent do it to boost your rank and gear up fast, but it still in the sense of win trading as you guys are intentionally allow the other team to beat you with little to no resistance what so ever.


here is the thing though: why even care about this anymore? it pretty clear to me that ffxiv pvp team doesnt care about this stuff at all. they allow win trading and related action to go on this long with out giving any form of judgement call on this.i no longer even care to say much on this subject matter anymore as it is pointless. i will just wait for SE to say something about this and then give 1 last word on it. intil then, ce la vie

[Kantei]

Tlr version:
Win trading = trying to boost and out gear the community, using instant ques and matches that last 10 seconds. Can be used to boost to 40 very quickly. Features 30-45 matches an hour.

Friendlies = Choosing to not punish the losing team for losing during practice matches. And playing by alternate rule sets we agreed apon. Features roughly 10 matches an hour at most because we are actually fighting each other >.>.

[Kantei]

Ehh I guess the goal, attraction, and big pay off Zulu is when those members who required to be treated with kid gloves a few days before that, are naturally going 5/5 with you, without balance matches. Without holding back, and all it took was a few days of training, and PvE rules.

And then they invite a few friends along to the event.

Why care? It's our community, I know it's toxic and all, doesn't mean I didn't want feed back a month ago, when we started using it, and even now.

[Epistane]

I guess I like the idea but the best way for new players to learn is to jump into random queue themselves and play, they have to suck it up for a bit without pvp skills/armor, but eventually they get good.. And playing with 3 randoms gives them a chance to play in shitty situations and adapt.. ofc there's some things that you really can't do anything about (healer dying in literally 8 seconds)

Most of the best players on are DC are the ones who have been relentlessly grinding PvP constantly through random queueing and the vets who've been playing since the original grind.. Like I said, if ur goal really is to help newer players and not glorified win trading (not gonna be like some of these people and just blatantly accuse you, BUT i'm not backing u up either), this is nice of you, but nothing will beat random queuing and learning for themselves (with advice from the the more experienced players OFC)

[rappa]

You are wintrading and proud to do it.

If you lose because you are a bad pvp player, the defeat shows you how you may learn to fight another match.

But the friendlies goal is "oh...doesn't matter if i win or not, because the enemy team, give me 5-10-1000 wins matches without an effort.

Thanks SE.

[Epistane]

You are wintrading and proud to do it.

Well assuming that they are actually win trading I wouldn't say he's "proud" of it. If he we're proud of it, he would tell u right now that he dosen't give a living shit about what you think and that he would admit that they are win trading.

THAT'S called being proud of it. The only person i can say who was proud of it was the dude from gilgamesh hitting rank 40 in like 2 weeks (as RANGED DPS, LOL wtb 1 min queues as RDPS) then making a brag post hitting rank 40, now that's being proud.