Dragoons need to be buffed...

[givemeraptors]

How is his post wrong? You lose potency, for sure. But you can stay at the rear and still maintain GL3.

He says:

But you can just sit on the rear the entire time on Monk and never lose Greased Lightning stacks. Thus there is no mandatory positional for Monk. Now do that with Dragoon.

Out of position MNK loses 75 potency on Boostshine; 50 potency on dragon kick; and 40 potency on true strike, snap punch, twin snakes and demolish. DPS loss ranges from a whopping 50% to a still really terrible 26%.

Out of position DRG loses Heavy Thrust buff (15%) and jaw dropping 70% and 80% from Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive respectively, however the rest of their rotation doesn't suffer aside from the flat loss of 15%. There's also the matter of how often each of those moves show up within their rotation...blah blah blah.

Just eyeballing it I would guess that the DPS loss for both classes is actually around the same. But guesswork aside, it's just flat out wrong to state that MNK loses almost nothing being out of position because "GL will still be up". A MNK does not need to be in position to activate their buffs but the trade-off is a DPS loss on all of their abilities when done out of position (with the exception of Touch of Death and...Haymaker )

Neither are "mandatory", but you'll probably be out-DPS'd by a BRD if you ignore all positional requirements for both classes.

[kukurumei]

Out of position DRG loses Heavy Thrust buff (15%) and jaw dropping 70% and 80% from Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive respectively, however the rest of their rotation doesn't suffer aside from the flat loss of 15%. There's also the matter of how often each of those moves show up within their rotation...blah blah blah.

That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

[YanderePrincess]

That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

Look at it this way. Which class loses more dps in a situation where position-bonuses can't be used, period?

[kukurumei]

Look at it this way. Which class loses more dps in a situation where position-bonuses can't be used, period?

In any race but a sustain dps race drg wins. That's what being a drg is all about. They are the all-purpose-goto-dps.

Drg should never be in a position where they are worthless. They cover pretty much all their bases at the cost of being top dog.

[givemeraptors]

That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

Well yeah, it helps that those are starting moves. That's why I mentioned when they show up within the rotation (which for brevity I shortened).

I don't understand why you replied. You stated "you're joking right" yet you reinforced what Exstal said. A monk will lose potency but can sit at the rear of a boss and maintain 100% uptime on his buffs. Ergo, monk buffs are not mandatory on position. Heavy thrust and Impluse Drive buffs (let alone the choas thrust combo) can only activate with landing the correct position. Ergo, they are mandatory. As noted, neither class will play well without landing positionals.

My stance is this: MNK must always be positioned. DRG must be positioned at key moments. To me, having to ALWAYS meet positional requirements on all abilities is far more annoying than only having to meet it twice in a very long rotation. If he's talking only about what is needed to activate buffs than yes, he is correct. But I got the sense that he was talking about DPS in general. Not just about positional buffs.

EDIT: Yeah I just double-checked, the reply was just about positionals. Not specifically positional buffs.

[JetBrooks]

To me, having to ALWAYS meet positional requirements on all abilities is far more annoying than only having to meet it twice in a very long rotation.

I don't disagree, but the mentioned "very long rotation" has 5 positionals, not 2.

[whiskeybravo]

I don't disagree, but the mentioned "very long rotation" has 5 positionals, not 2.

I know you know Dragoon, Jet.. I've been Dragooning a while, too, but what are the 5 positions? Heavy thrust is flank and Impulse drive is rear.. Am I missing something? Lol..

As a side note, I started working on Pugilist a bit more since getting the fists from t5.. I don't really like it compared to Dragoon, like every other attack you have to change from flank to rear.. Dragoon is once on the side, immediately rear, then you can hang out for like 18 seconds where ever you want until needing to reapply HT

[JetBrooks]

The "very long rotation", and I'm starting to like that name haha, requires 3 Heavy Thrusts and 2 Impulse Drives.

If we're talking about number of times having to have moved throughout a rotation, DRG has to be positioned for 5 abilities, not 2. Still not the end of the world, but people that say "only 2 per rotation" are off by more than 100%. All I'm saying =p

Let me reiterate, I think MNK and DRG are balanced perfectly, and that I've only taken part in this discussion (as usual) to help correct misinformation/misunderstandings.

I'm far more interested in the buff to BLM's single-target DPS. It's pretty unrewarding to be on the ball (as funny as that may sound to those unfamiliar with playing BLM well) with BLM on single targets.

[whiskeybravo]

The "very long rotation", and I'm starting to like that name haha, requires 3 Heavy Thrusts and 2 Impulse Drives.

If we're talking about number of times having to have moved throughout a rotation, DRG has to be positioned for 5 abilities, not 2. Still not the end of the world, but people that say "only 2 per rotation" are off by more than 100%. All I'm saying =p

Let me reiterate, I think MNK and DRG are balanced perfectly, and that I've only taken part in this discussion (as usual) to help correct misinformation/misunderstandings.

Ahh, that's what I thought you meant, the total amount of positionals in the "very long rotation". A minor technicality, I think.

[Exstal]

My stance is this: MNK must always be positioned. DRG must be positioned at key moments.

For optimal DPS, of course. But you can miss a positional on Monk and still be alright (keeping up Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick, Demolish), with the loss being in potency for that GCD. Miss a key positional on Dragoon, and you lose the change to activate the next chain. To me, and those who read things literally, that is mandatory. If you can't advance chain because it is in the wrong spot, then it's mandatory that you do it in the right spot. Doesn't have to do with DPS, it has to do with what you can and can't do afterwards.

I'm somewhat flabbergasted that we spent 3 pages on this. It's a very simple concept that did't actually need to be discussed in depth. Monk is cooler anyway. Break dance > falling from the sky