When is enough really enough ???? [DEV]

[Wolfie]

ok i'll give a few

1. the armory system. no, it was not great at release by any stretch. i don't think you will find anyone that will argue there should have been more class specific abilities, but for the core of the system to build your own character many people really liked.

The armory system has been criticized up and down because it creates homogeneous, boring classes. It was one of the top complaints about this game. It's also what's holding back the game NOW, because we're going to have jobs tied to weapons, archers with no melee weapons, etc. Not a good feature at all.

2. the leve system. yes, it is now, but should not have ever been the main way of progression in the game. quite frankly it is the only time you can get people to party at this point though. the reason is if more than one group winds up in an area trying to grind is the sp is severely affected.

Also not a good system. Leves are boring and exploited to hell because it's more rewarding to fail a leve than it is to complete one. Let's not forget the exploits with healing during leves that was present in the game's first few weeks. Don't think I've read a single review that praised the leve system.

3. the class quests. yes, i know the quests in this game were horrible and should have been vastly improved. i did still enjoy the little lore behind each class we did. they were extremely boring and need to be mostly just be redone. the only one i have really enjoyed was the r36 blacksmith quest and that one only because of the cut scene.

You just backed out on your point with the first sentence. They're horrible, they're boring, they don't happen often enough. The little quest content that this game shipped with was awful.

4. the fact that they tried to make the game to bring in a more diverse crowd. this failed dramatically though because you cannot make one game that caters to everyone. there needed to be different things for the different playstyles to enjoy.

That's not a redeeming feature, especially if it failed. Every game tries to appeal to a larger crowd.

5. they went away from the 24hr-1week spawn times on nm's. it made it easier for people with less camping time to enjoy doing the higher level mobs.

Game didn't ship with NMs. But I'll throw Tanaka a bone, because these were implemented under his supervision.

[darkstarpoet1]

The armory system has been criticized up and down because it creates homogeneous, boring classes. It was one of the top complaints about this game. It's also what's holding back the game NOW, because we're going to have jobs tied to weapons, archers with no melee weapons, etc. Not a good feature at all.

i never said it was perfect at all. do you think it will be easier to make a cookie cutter class in this game where you can level all classes over when you had one class and a sub-job? to me this was a step forward. you are right about the changing weapons though. i completely agree i do not like the not being able to change weapons, but that was something that could have been changed inside of the system without removing it.

Also not a good system. Leves are boring and exploited to hell because it's more rewarding to fail a leve than it is to complete one. Let's not forget the exploits with healing during leves that was present in the game's first few weeks. Don't think I've read a single review that praised the leve system.

can you name me any mmo that does not have a go kill x amount of enemy quest? i already stated it should have never been the only content to do as a group or the most efficient way of leveling. if there was more stuff to do content wise you would not have the same parties grouping every 36 hours for them because they would have other things they wanted to do.

You just backed out on your point with the first sentence. They're horrible, they're boring, they don't happen often enough. The little quest content that this game shipped with was awful.

i agree it was very lacking. i never denied that. all i was saying is that it could have been drastically improved upon to become much better. to me they should have happened more often and had more to them, but that doesn't change the fact they were there and could have been improved upon.

That's not a redeeming feature, especially if it failed. Every game tries to appeal to a larger crowd.

it got alot of people that would have not gotten the game to give it a try. that is a redeeming feature. the fact that they did a horrible job of it, however, was not.

Game didn't ship with NMs. But I'll throw Tanaka a bone, because these were implemented under his supervision.

tanaka added these to give the high level characters something halfway challenging to do. it was directly followed by yoshi nerfing them and making them super easy.

[Wolfie]

i never said it was perfect at all. do you think it will be easier to make a cookie cutter class in this game where you can level all classes over when you had one class and a sub-job? to me this was a step forward. you are right about the changing weapons though. i completely agree i do not like the not being able to change weapons, but that was something that could have been changed inside of the system without removing it.

I never implied that you said it was perfect. I said it wasn't good. And it wasn't. There's already cookie cutter builds popping up, by picking out the best damage dealing abilities from other DOW classes (or THM hands down beating CON as a support mage). Cookie cutter builds are unavoidable. But that has nothing to do with how homogeneous and BORING the classes are. They all play identically and it can't be fixed as long as they insist on keeping the armory system. But that's another argument for another topic.

can you name me any mmo that does not have a go kill x amount of enemy quest? i already stated it should have never been the only content to do as a group or the most efficient way of leveling. if there was more stuff to do content wise you would not have the same parties grouping every 36 hours for them because they would have other things they wanted to do.

Name another MMO whose core of leveling came with 8 repeatable quests/36 hours, which offered paltry amounts of lore and equally paltry variance in the kinds of mobs or mob abilities that you faced. How about an MMO where it's better to FAIL your quests and keep re-trying it because it gives you an edge? How about one where EVERY repeatable quest followed the exact same formula ("Kill/gather X amount of monster/item, in a 30 minute time limit")? Yeah, other MMOs have similar "Kill X monsters in Y area". But that's where the similarities end, and unfortunately, leves never go beyond just that formula.

i agree it was very lacking. i never denied that. all i was saying is that it could have been drastically improved upon to become much better. to me they should have happened more often and had more to them, but that doesn't change the fact they were there and could have been improved upon.

"What could have been" is not a feature.

it got alot of people that would have not gotten the game to give it a try. that is a redeeming feature. the fact that they did a horrible job of it, however, was not.

This game shipped 600,000 units, and its population peaked at around 80k or 90k. It was being sold for half off within a month of release. It's not a redeeming feature at all, because it FAILED.

tanaka added these to give the high level characters something halfway challenging to do. it was directly followed by yoshi nerfing them and making them super easy.

They weren't easy before? You know, with THM tanking them and maybe even soloing them?

[darkstarpoet1]

I never implied that you said it was perfect. I said it wasn't good. And it wasn't. There's already cookie cutter builds popping up, by picking out the best damage dealing abilities from other DOW classes (or THM hands down beating CON as a support mage). Cookie cutter builds are unavoidable. But that has nothing to do with how homogeneous and BORING the classes are. They all play identically and it can't be fixed as long as they insist on keeping the armory system. But that's another argument for another topic.

yeah i know that gladiator and that conjurer play completely the same and they are exactly no different than an archer...

Name another MMO whose core of leveling came with 8 repeatable quests/36 hours, which offered paltry amounts of lore and equally paltry variance in the kinds of mobs or mob abilities that you faced. How about an MMO where it's better to FAIL your quests and keep re-trying it because it gives you an edge? How about one where EVERY repeatable quest followed the exact same formula ("Kill/gather X amount of monster/item, in a 30 minute time limit")? Yeah, other MMOs have similar "Kill X monsters in Y area". But that's where the similarities end, and unfortunately, leves never go beyond just that formula.

and didn't i say with more different kinds of things to do it would have been different. you knock something because it was the only thing released so it became boring. i feel they were meant as nothing more than a quick thing for casuals to do or people getting their guild marks. they became boring because we did them every 36 hours and we did that because it was the only major thing released. the problem is not that leves were put in game, but the fact they were the only repeatable content put in the game.

"What could have been" is not a feature.

um yes, the original question was what core features were in game that could have a redeembale quality. the fact that it was in the game at release and could have been added to does make it a core feature.

This game shipped 600,000 units, and its population peaked at around 80k or 90k. It was being sold for half off within a month of release. It's not a redeeming feature at all, because it FAILED.

ok let's say this. say they had said they were going to make a game for hardcores from xi completely. how many casuals would have purchased this game?

let's say they they were going to go completely the opposite way and say they were going to make the game completely for casuals. how many hardcore players would have bought the game?

they sold more copies by trying to do stuff for both groups than if they had went for only one or the other. they did a poor job of it, but it was something they tried to do and if they had been able to pull it off it would have been great for the game and not just good.

They weren't easy before? You know, with THM tanking them and maybe even soloing them?

i never said they were hard. i said a halfway decent challenge. in case you remember the thm could not solo it without doing the hate reset on the mob, therefore, they did not technically solo it as it was intended. if a group did not have a thm that was built strictly for tanking, yes, those were decently difficult fights. i'm not going to go overboard and say hard, but at least it was harder than the tank and spank of mob grinding. i was doing most of them duo pre-nerf because i refused to hate reset the mobs, but at least they were fun and a nice challenge to duo.

[Wolfie]

yeah i know that gladiator and that conjurer play completely the same and they are exactly no different than an archer...

Marauder plays the same as lancer plays the same as gladiator plays the same as puglist, etc.
Archer plays like the rest of DOW but with ranged attacks.
DOM all play the same.

Whoo boy, 3 different play styles. It's like I'm playing Runescape. That I paid $80 for.

and didn't i say with more different kinds of things to do it would have been different. you knock something because it was the only thing released so it became boring. i feel they were meant as nothing more than a quick thing for casuals to do or people getting their guild marks. they became boring because we did them every 36 hours and we did that because it was the only major thing released. the problem is not that leves were put in game, but the fact they were the only repeatable content put in the game.

um yes, the original question was what core features were in game that could have a redeembale quality. the fact that it was in the game at release and could have been added to does make it a core feature.

Not going to bother replying to these beyond: "what could have been" is not a feature. If it was, every game would be the best game ever.

ok let's say this. say they had said they were going to make a game for hardcores from xi completely. how many casuals would have purchased this game?

let's say they they were going to go completely the opposite way and say they were going to make the game completely for casuals. how many hardcore players would have bought the game?

they sold more copies by trying to do stuff for both groups than if they had went for only one or the other. they did a poor job of it, but it was something they tried to do and if they had been able to pull it off it would have been great for the game and not just good.

THAT'S NOT A FEATURE, YOU NINCOMPOOP. Aiming for a larger audience is NOT a feature, and it's something EVERYONE does regardless. Moreover, they didn't exactly SELL a lot of copies. They SHIPPED 600,000 units, which were being sold for half off within a month. Within two months, retailers were asking for recalls on the game. It PEAKED at 90k players, so we can assume that MAYBE 150k units sold. That's pathetic for a flagship title from a AAA developer.

Jesus christ man.

i never said they were hard. i said a halfway decent challenge. in case you remember the thm could not solo it without doing the hate reset on the mob, therefore, they did not technically solo it as it was intended. if a group did not have a thm that was built strictly for tanking, yes, those were decently difficult fights. i'm not going to go overboard and say hard, but at least it was harder than the tank and spank of mob grinding. i was doing most of them duo pre-nerf because i refused to hate reset the mobs, but at least they were fun and a nice challenge to duo.

So they COULD solo it, because they could exploit the game's combat mechanics. That still means it's a broken feature. Nothing worked "as intended" with this game, then. It was a busted piece of garbage. You're not helping your case.

[darkstarpoet1]

Marauder plays the same as lancer plays the same as gladiator plays the same as puglist, etc.
Archer plays like the rest of DOW but with ranged attacks.
DOM all play the same.

ok let me know when a gladiator can use a multishot or the lancer can use aegis boom or a conjurer and thm aoe is the same please. when you do i will even bother to respond to the rest of your post. until they do i'm not gonna waste my time.

[Wolfie]

ok let me know when a gladiator can use a multishot or the lancer can use aegis boom or a conjurer and thm aoe is the same please. when you do i will even bother to respond to the rest of your post. until they do i'm not gonna waste my time.

Good, please keep it that way forever. I can't stand arguing with people who can't read or understand anything.

[Ilean]

Lol all he did is write a failed area of the game then try to justify it.


I agree though that the armory system is a solid concept that was poorly implemented. There was no strategy or synergy between abilities. You essentially have to level up as many jobs as possible so their good abilities become available for 3 AP each.

it was directly followed by yoshi nerfing them and making them super easy.

They were supereasy before to any group of decent players. Too bad for you.