Battle Reform: Auto-Attack (06/30/2011)

[Capita]

Also in WoW the ranged AA was a very small DPS boost, our hunter in Uldah Hard Mode era was ranked #1 world DPS on WoWMeters for 4 hard modes, and top 10 for the rest. His AA was only 17-19% on most of the fights... I think you mentioned it was 60% in another post? That's almost like just sitting there AFK and letting your pet do the other 40% of the damage.

No one used WoWMeters. Everyone used World of Logs, because that's the only WoW DPS parser that any high-end endgame guild used at the time of ICC. Anyone who says Auto Shots weren't a big part of DPS just shows me that they aren't very good and doesn't know what WoW endgame is. So no offense, but I highly doubt your friend was #1 in the world in anything. Stutter stepping was developed SPECIFICALLY to make use of the high percentage of DPS that Auto Shots provided. 60% Auto Shots is normal for any good Hunter who knew how to stutter step, meaning he didn't miss any Auto Shots during movement. Only bad Hunters had less than 30% Auto Shots as Survival and less than 60% Auto Shots as Marksman (even on high mobility fights like Heroic Putricide), because it's obvious they don't know how to stutter step. Like I said, it's the difference between a good Hunter and a great one. Kripparrian (#1 Hunter in the world) even has a video of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgDjG_0ecTI

Think about the fact that Marksmanship Hunters only had Chimera Shot (10s cooldown), Aimed Shot (10s cooldown), Serpent Sting (refreshed upon Chimera Shot), and Steady Shot (1.5s cast time) for their DPS sequence and it's not hard to see Auto Shot made up most of their DPS (Auto Shot went off even while casting Steady Shot). Due to the nature of Armor Penetration and Chimera Shot being Nature damage -- Auto Shot damage, being physical, got much better with better gear. This means that while Chimera Shot, your main nuke, did 14k plus 3k damage (3k burst from Serpent Sting being on the target, totalling 17k), it remained at 17k total damage every 10 seconds. That's 1700 DPS. Now Auto Shots, being physical and effected by Armor Penetration, could hit up to 15k damage max. Now imagine that Auto Shots went off every 2.8 seconds (with the endgame bow), and that's about 5357 DPS. Pretty huge, right? Now add haste. About 2 minutes worth of 1.8 attack speed. That's 8333 DPS every 2 minutes within a 5 minute boss fight. That's 6547 DPS throughout the duration of the fight. Now imagine top Hunter DPS without the ICC 30% buff was about 13k, and that's 50% Auto Shot DPS. That's still not counting procs and stuff, which could easily increase Auto Shot damage well past 60%.

Haste buff stacking and proper stutter stepping while Bloodlust is up, and the fact that Auto Shot DPS increased even more with Haste while Chimera Shot stayed the same, and it was normal to see up to 60% of total DPS for Marks coming from Auto Shots. 30-40% for Survival. I can see if I can dig up any of my old 25-man Heroic Festergut parses if you'd like further proof of what an endgame Hunter really is.

Now some of you are probably thinking what this all has to do with FFXIV. Different games, blah blah blah. Ok cool. But think about the significance of Auto Attack in WoW and the possibility that Auto Attack could be just as valuable in FFXIV (deals considerable DPS, uber affected by Haste). I don't know about you, but if Auto Attack in this game is anywhere near like other games, even the lower end 30% of total DPS is quite a steep amount of DPS to be missing, let alone 60%. Yes I was a top contributor to endgame Hunter theorycrafting when I played, and yes I spent way too much time playing that awful game. I said it before, I'm very experienced when it comes to competitive endgame as a ranged DPS class (WoW and FFXI included), so I have no doubt my concerns are quite founded.

[Corrderio]

For the whole "ARCs need to watch damage" thing, I can't say that's a good excuse since with job balances, adjustments to attributes, etc. I'm pretty sure that will be addressed

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

I call for a truce on the Archer debate, maybe some hugs in AA range.

The battle mechanics that are present today may not be the mechanics after the patch. And the auto attack envisioned for melee may be affected by other factors that does not make it the DPS bonus it sounds from other MMORPGS.

Wait, see, adapt, but most of all, love.

*bribes a shirtless lalafell boy to dance for us*

[NefGP]

For everyone claiming that AA won't dramatically change things:

- Did you ever seriously play XI and see just how overpowered Haste was? (still is)
- Do you realize who exactly it is that's programming this game?

Yeah, I have every reason to be highly skeptical. I'm seeing Matsui & the other devs repeating the exact same mistake that made ranged attacks obsolete in XI. RNG is still a total mess because even though it recently gained a very powerful WS (Jishnu's Radiance) and an equally devastating job trait (Dead Aim), it still faces the same 2 problems it always has:

- Lack of Haste to abuse auto-attack for DPS & TP gain
- Too fragile for the kind of enmity it can generate with it's strongest attacks


So excuse me if I rather liked ARC the way it was in this game, you know, relevant and fun.

[Capita]

*bribes a shirtless lalafell boy to dance for us*

I think I love you... but I may love the lalafell boy more. Totally nonsexual.

[Azwath]

Update 1.18 is still the first step for new Battle System.
For what I see, probably, Buffs like Ferocity, Raging Strike and etc, won't be executed/trigger by Auto Attack.
It will be only be done by Weapon Skill or manual attack (e.g. light shot). That is why I think one of the reason light shot not given AA.

[Betelgeuzah]

For everyone claiming that AA won't dramatically change things:

- Did you ever seriously play XI and see just how overpowered Haste was? (still is)
- Do you realize who exactly it is that's programming this game?

Yeah, I have every reason to be highly skeptical. I'm seeing Matsui & the other devs repeating the exact same mistake that made ranged attacks obsolete in XI. RNG is still a total mess because even though it recently gained a very powerful WS (Jishnu's Radiance) and an equally devastating job trait (Dead Aim), it still faces the same 2 problems it always has:

- Lack of Haste to abuse auto-attack for DPS & TP gain
- Too fragile for the kind of enmity it can generate with it's strongest attack.[/I]

Dear God you don't listen.

A) RNG in XI has Haste: Snapshot.

B) Haste mechanics in XI =/=Haste mechanics in XIV (or any other MMO). There DOES NOT HAVE TO BE exponential increases which made Haste utterly broken.

C) Matsui did not develop the battle mechanics for XI. He became the battle director in 2006.

D) At the end of the day, RNG's problem is the lack of defense, not the lack of offense.

[NefGP]

Dear God you don't listen.

A) RNG in XI has Haste: Snapshot.

B) Haste mechanics in XI =/=Haste mechanics in XIV (or any other MMO). There DOES NOT HAVE TO BE exponential increases which made Haste utterly broken.

C) Matsui did not develop the battle mechanics for XI. He became the battle director in 2006.

D) At the end of the day, RNG's problem is the lack of defense, not the lack of offense.

A) Snapshot from merits caps at 10%, you don't get that much more from gear, and the lack of auto-attack means you're still way behind regular hasted DD's because of the manual input. Never mind that if you hit that input at the wrong time, you get penalized with a delay thus negating it altogether. But then you'd know that if you still played XI.

B) This game is being ran by XI's old dev team. 'nuff said.

C) He still oversees everything and ultimate has the authority to greenlight updates.

D) RNG's problems in XI are lack of enmity management and no real way to deal consistent damage without spiking and getting the mob's attention, or meleeing for TP thus feeding the mob TP which is detrimental.


Honestly, play XI some more before spouting nonsense. Never mind what this is going to do to ARC's solo ability, and with the proposed guild leve changes should make getting marks a nightmare. It's not like most mobs just sit back waiting for you to shoot them. So while the other melee classes are whooping butt with mobs right in their faces, ARC will be sitting there looking stupid with just our bare fists wishing we could use our ranged abilities.

{Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

[Davorok]

The "issue" with Archer AA is that when you solo, the mob(s) are right in your face so you can't hit the monster with your bow AND shoot an arrow. However punching the monster in between arrow shots doesn't make much sense either.

The "Pimp Slap" joke could become reality though IF the slap/punch was actually an attempt to shove the mob away. If the "shove" is successful, you hit it with a (working) ShadowBind and then get in a High-Powered WS that is dependant on distance.

But a shove is still kinds silly so just give Archers a "Kick Attack" that knocks back the enemy.

I dunno, it's late and I'm spit-balling on what will obviously be a broken system untill they figure out a better AA for Archer.

On the other hand, as a tail-less Galka ancestor I always enjoy punching things.

[Amas]

lol...

The amount of silly people I see in these forums is just amazing.

When I see such fail logic as:
Archer gets close range AA in the form of fists > now we have to use our fists to fight instead of our arrows
... nothing describes my reaction better than a facepalm of epic proportions.

Then what really amuses me is that most of the people complaining about Archer not having a ranged AA seem to be players that do not have Archer to rank 50.

Archer in FFXIV is quite different than in other MMOs, and especially different from other classes. A ranged AA would hurt Archer more than help it. If you do not understand why this is the case, then please rank Archer to 50, go on some NM runs and see how you can truly maximize your DPS and usefulness as an Archer. When you realize it has nothing to do with how many times you can hit Light Shot in a minute, you will feel silly.

Right, and the argument that the pro-AA people are making is that re-designing ARC is going to be better in the long run for game balance than preserving the current way it's played.

Every class needs major overhaul to make it more unique to play, and ARC is on that list as well. It will be much easier, from a long-term game balance perspective, to make the basic mechanics of ARC more like other classes. If that means that the current way ARC plays falls by the wayside, so be it. If it prevents ARC turning into RNG, I would consider it a net positive change.

Hi Capita (and everyone upset at Archer's lack of Ranged AA),

I definitely see the "inconvenience factor" of having to press "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" for your own Light Shot at ranged distance, but there are few things to keep in mind:

1. Multishot / Trifurcate / Sleep / Shadowbind: There are situations and conditions right now in the game where these things exist. People have already mentioned Multishot and Trifurcate, and yes, it could be re-imagined as a Weaponskill instead of manually nocking Arrows, but it's not the case. This is the Final Fantasy team's choice.

Also, let's say you want to Shadowbind an Enemy (different play styles), if you have Auto-Attack, you just Bound an Enemy, but oops, your Auto Attack just fired off and you hit the Enemy, breaking the Bind.

Also with Slept Enemies, who knows what the "Cone" is like for Archers, but quickly turning away may not be fast enough and you may hit a Slept Enemy with Auto Attack (with the Archer's massive range) and woken it up.

For Multishot/Trifurcate, there's no reason they could be triggered via a separate attack, rather than automatically wasted by auto attacking. Heck, if the concept of it seems strange (nocking extra arrows while still firing), have triggering Multishot/Trifurcate pause auto attack until those nocked arrows are fired.

I struggle to find uses for Shadowbind. Recast is too long to be terribly useful for soloing, and Bind is nigh on useless for group activities. Using that as a central argument is silly, especially since Shadowbind could be completely redesigned in any case.

Auto-attack will only attack the current target. If you're worried about automatically re-targeted and waking a slept mob, that is easily dealt with. Not worth losing sleep over.

2. Director Yoshida has said repeatedly that he wants each of the revised Class/Jobs to feel different, to have their own Class Uniqueness.

Right now, in FF XIV, all Melee classes can basically hit "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" (their basic attack), build up TP, unleash a WS, and repeat.

I'd say having one DoW Class in the future (after 1.18) that *doesn't* have Auto Attack (like every other Melee class) is a step towards "uniqueness."

None of us know what the New Archer is going to play like when their full Revised Battle System is in place.

Who's to say the New Archer isn't a Burst DPS Class?

Let's say for example, that after 1.18, they gain TP quite fast per Shot, but you manually shoot, and you choose your Shots with lots of different Buffs.

That'd feel totally different (and refreshing and welcome IMHO), vs. a Pugilist or Marauder that is building up via Auto Attack in close to the enemy.

They're revising and re-examining all Weaponskills, Traits, and Abilities. We don't know what the New Archer's full set is going to be, or how it's going to play.

I think it's best if we just wait and see what it's like with the full picture, before we criticize (or praise) the changes.

Horrible analogy here, but children's with Down's Syndrome are unique. Doesn't mean people want to have the condition.

Unique is not an inherently positive term, and having one class being "unique" by having to button mash its auto attack is not unique in a good way.

And to reiterate from well above, the more similar the basic mechanics of ARC are to other classes (in terms of auto attack, lack of ammo limitations, etc.) the easier it will be to balance in the long run. Class uniqueness is important, class balance is just as important. There are other ways to make ARC unique (hell, it's already the only ranged non-magical DPS class, focus on that and exploiting ranged advantages for uniqueness) without making it a nightmare to balance.