Battle Reform: Auto-Attack (06/30/2011)

[Rentahamster]

A ranged AA would hurt Archer more than help it. If you do not understand why this is the case, then please rank Archer to 50, go on some NM runs and see how you can truly maximize your DPS and usefulness as an Archer. When you realize it has nothing to do with how many times you can hit Light Shot in a minute, you will feel silly.

Yep. Well said.

Nothing I've seen so far indicates that this aspect of archer gameplay is going to change for the worse.

[Capita]

lol...

The amount of silly people I see in these forums is just amazing.

When I see such fail logic as:
Archer gets close range AA in the form of fists > now we have to use our fists to fight instead of our arrows
... nothing describes my reaction better than a facepalm of epic proportions.

What's amusing is how you completely missed the point of the entire discussion. If AA turns out to be a significant source of DPS, then you have two options:

1. Get into melee range and maximize DPS while defeating the purpose of being ranged and endangering yourself/your party, making you a liability.
2. Stay at a safe range and do less DPS, making you a liability.

You ever min-max in endgame before? Things like these are important.

Then what really amuses me is that most of the people complaining about Archer not having a ranged AA seem to be players that do not have Archer to rank 50.

Funny you mention this, regardless of the fact that some of the non-50 players you're bashing have extensive endgame and theorycrafting experience in multiple games.

Archer in FFXIV is quite different than in other MMOs, and especially different from other classes. A ranged AA would hurt Archer more than help it. If you do not understand why this is the case, then please rank Archer to 50, go on some NM runs and see how you can truly maximize your DPS and usefulness as an Archer. When you realize it has nothing to do with how many times you can hit Light Shot in a minute, you will feel silly.

That may be, but the Archer archetype and the niche it fills is largely the same all around. The ARC in XIV is currently a hybrid of RNG in XI and Archer in Aion. Again, I don't see how you people somehow think a ranged AA would make ARC any less skillful, or make using and timing WS any less important. No one's saying to spam Light Shot, and no one said they currently spam Light Shot. Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Jynx]

I still don't get the hate for Archer not having AA. Personally I wouldn't want it as an archer but maybe thats just me.

I'm willing to wait for the battle updates before crying of milk that has yet to be spilled.

[Kiara]

Auto Attack is exactly what it is. It's a basic automatic attack that does basic damage. It's basically what Light Shot is. Abilities are attacks that have bonus damage and are limited in use by either cooldowns or energy consumption.

Melee classes get Auto Attack. It's a free attack that's separate from abilities. Archers get a melee Auto Attack but not a ranged one. At range, our basic attack has to be manually pressed and has a cooldown. Why should we have to spam our basic attack when other classes get theirs automated?

Even if it's not for more DPS, it just adds more unnecessary tedium to the Archer class.

Let's assume AA does basic damage and builds TP. Now let's assume LS does basic damage and builds TP. Both attack at the same rate (1-2 seconds). Now imagine your buddy with AA is chilling there waiting for his TP gauge to go up while we frantically mash our LS just to keep up with his TP gauge.

It's just extremely inconvenient. Can you honestly tell me why you think a ranged AA would be a bad idea?

Hi Capita (and everyone upset at Archer's lack of Ranged AA),

I definitely see the "inconvenience factor" of having to press "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" for your own Light Shot at ranged distance, but there are few things to keep in mind:

1. Multishot / Trifurcate / Sleep / Shadowbind: There are situations and conditions right now in the game where these things exist. People have already mentioned Multishot and Trifurcate, and yes, it could be re-imagined as a Weaponskill instead of manually nocking Arrows, but it's not the case. This is the Final Fantasy team's choice.

Also, let's say you want to Shadowbind an Enemy (different play styles), if you have Auto-Attack, you just Bound an Enemy, but oops, your Auto Attack just fired off and you hit the Enemy, breaking the Bind.

Also with Slept Enemies, who knows what the "Cone" is like for Archers, but quickly turning away may not be fast enough and you may hit a Slept Enemy with Auto Attack (with the Archer's massive range) and woken it up.


2. Director Yoshida has said repeatedly that he wants each of the revised Class/Jobs to feel different, to have their own Class Uniqueness.

Right now, in FF XIV, all Melee classes can basically hit "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" (their basic attack), build up TP, unleash a WS, and repeat.

I'd say having one DoW Class in the future (after 1.18) that *doesn't* have Auto Attack (like every other Melee class) is a step towards "uniqueness."

None of us know what the New Archer is going to play like when their full Revised Battle System is in place.

Who's to say the New Archer isn't a Burst DPS Class?

Let's say for example, that after 1.18, they gain TP quite fast per Shot, but you manually shoot, and you choose your Shots with lots of different Buffs.

That'd feel totally different (and refreshing and welcome IMHO), vs. a Pugilist or Marauder that is building up via Auto Attack in close to the enemy.

They're revising and re-examining all Weaponskills, Traits, and Abilities. We don't know what the New Archer's full set is going to be, or how it's going to play.

I think it's best if we just wait and see what it's like with the full picture, before we criticize (or praise) the changes.

[Capita]

Hi Capita (and everyone upset at Archer's lack of Ranged AA),

I definitely see the "inconvenience factor" of having to press "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" for your own Light Shot at ranged distance, but there are few things to keep in mind:

1. Multishot / Trifurcate / Sleep / Shadowbind: There are situations and conditions right now in the game where these things exist. People have already mentioned Multishot and Trifurcate, and yes, it could be re-imagined as a Weaponskill instead of manually nocking Arrows, but it's not the case. This is the Final Fantasy team's choice.

Also, let's say you want to Shadowbind an Enemy (different play styles), if you have Auto-Attack, you just Bound an Enemy, but oops, your Auto Attack just fired off and you hit the Enemy, breaking the Bind.

Also with Slept Enemies, who knows what the "Cone" is like for Archers, but quickly turning away may not be fast enough and you may hit a Slept Enemy with Auto Attack (with the Archer's massive range) and woken it up.

Yes, I see these problems too. However, I'm assuming AA will be a toggle, so it wouldn't be difficult to macro AA /off before a CC. I've done it for years on WoW, so I don't see how it'll be any different with XIV's macros.

2. Director Yoshida has said repeatedly that he wants each of the revised Class/Jobs to feel different, to have their own Class Uniqueness.

Right now, in FF XIV, all Melee classes can basically hit "1, 1, 1, 1, 1" (their basic attack), build up TP, unleash a WS, and repeat.

I'd say having one DoW Class in the future (after 1.18) that *doesn't* have Auto Attack (like every other Melee class) is a step towards "uniqueness."

None of us know what the New Archer is going to play like when their full Revised Battle System is in place.

Who's to say the New Archer isn't a Burst DPS Class?

Let's say for example, that after 1.18, they gain TP quite fast per Shot, but you manually shoot, and you choose your Shots with lots of different Buffs.

That'd feel totally different (and refreshing and welcome IMHO), vs. a Pugilist or Marauder that is building up via Auto Attack in close to the enemy.

Great points, and ones I can agree with. Though you can't really fault me for being extremely wary of the unbalance these "differences between classes" might cause, all things considered.

They're revising and re-examining all Weaponskills, Traits, and Abilities. We don't know what the New Archer's full set is going to be, or how it's going to play.

I think it's best if we just wait and see what it's like with the full picture, before we criticize (or praise) the changes.

Exactly what I've been saying. Nothing of what I've been saying has been conclusive. It's feedback and speculation as to what -can- happen to the battle system. Some of the people replying just can't seem to grasp the fact that others might not share the same opinion or preference.

[NoctisUmbra]

Again, I don't see how you people somehow think a ranged AA would make ARC any less skillful, or make using and timing WS any less important.

Exactly what I've been telling you. Take my suggestions to heart, play this game enough to get Archer to 50 and then you'll see clearly.

If you played it briefly, did not like it, and then took months and months off and continue to not play it but rather post on the forums attempting to debate - while you wait for some game-changing patch - about something you do not yet fully understand then it's just silly.

I'm not saying the patch is gonna be great for Archer, nor am I saying, like you, that it will probably ruin it. I am saying that I do not know and there's a different between hypothesizing and crying about hypothetical scenarios.

[Naylia]

AA is not a toggle. It auto engages when you are within a certain range of the enemy. This was stated earlier by the Devs.

[Rentahamster]

If AA turns out to be a significant source of DPS, then you have two options:.

"If"

What we're trying to say, is that there's more evidence that it will not turn out to be a significant source of DPS.

You are basing your hypothetical opinion on something that is probably not going to happen.

[Zdenka]

What's amusing is how you completely missed the point of the entire discussion. If AA turns out to be a significant source of DPS, then you have two options:

1. Get into melee range and maximize DPS while defeating the purpose of being ranged and endangering yourself/your party, making you a liability.
2. Stay at a safe range and do less DPS, making you a liability.

You ever min-max in endgame before? Things like these are important.

Its been stated multiple times in this thread that you suffer a ranged accuracy loss at close range. Since I can come to my own conclusions since there is no info I am going to assume the Meele AA will do 10-20% of what a Light Shot will do.

Is missing 10% (Im not sure the exact amount of accuracy you lose for being in meele for archer) more worth it? Most likely not.

I am going to wager that you will do more at long range totally ignoring the meele AA just because of the accuracy loss.

Also the closer you get to 50 the more ARC seems to play like XI's BLM, just without cast timers. Huge burst hit after huge burst hit and very small amounts of smaller hits (Light Shots to fill in gaps waiting for RS2 to repop for example). Its already the most unique physical class, and I agree with SE's decision to not give it ranged AA.

Also in WoW the ranged AA was a very small DPS boost, our hunter in Uldah Hard Mode era was ranked #1 world DPS on WoWMeters for 4 hard modes, and top 10 for the rest. His AA was only 17-19% on most of the fights... I think you mentioned it was 60% in another post? That's almost like just sitting there AFK and letting your pet do the other 40% of the damage.

[Capita]

Exactly what I've been telling you. Take my suggestions to heart, play this game enough to get Archer to 50 and then you'll see clearly.

If you played it briefly, did not like it, and then took months and months off and continue to not play it but rather post on the forums attempting to debate - while you wait for some game-changing patch - about something you do not yet fully understand then it's just silly.

I'm not saying the patch is gonna be great for Archer, nor am I saying, like you, that it will probably ruin it. I am saying that I do not know and there's a different between hypothesizing and crying about hypothetical scenarios.

See, this is the kind of response I've been waiting for (along with the one from Kiara).

Now, granted, I haven't played ARC to 50. I'm genuinely curious as to what's so different and unique about being maxed in this game compared to others. If it's not anything to do with skill sequences (lolrotations/lolpriority), crowd control (AMGAH DON'T BREAK SLEEP), using certain abilities for certain boss mechanics (a la Incapacitation), managing threat (what MMO doesn't have this), and generally not being a complete asshat (LEEEERRROOOYY), I'm all ears. Otherwise, I'd consider them to be general knowledge.