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  1. #31
    Player
    ZReport's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    364
    Character
    Sho Ryuuken
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Falen View Post
    Except that what I said earlier stands even in the 1.0 Ul'Dah intro cutscene; Momodi refers to Thancred as a bard, not Bard. And there was no talk of Jobs before Yoshi-P took over, unless you can prove otherwise? Jobs came in patch 1.21, a whole (almost) year and a half after Yoshi-P took to helm ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...tch-1.21-Notes ).
    Thancred was never intended to be a Bard in 1.0, therefore there was nothing in that sense retconned.
    bard =/= Bard
    There's no difference between a capitalized and a lowercase "bard." It's the exact same job being portrayed, lol. A bard is a Bard, they sing, they play music.

    And also, if you read more closely, you'd see I said class and not job in the first place. It was simply going to be a class, and that's that (like I stated). I know when jobs were introduced as well; I was making the assumption that people arguing knew that jobs came with Yoshida.

    And everything was retconned, because now he is a character who can portray many different roles, instead of just one. As stated by Yoshida two days ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokyo FATE Event
    p; there is Pictologica Final Fantasy, we have FF14 event right now, right now you can get Thancred but his default weapon is Maquaftil (the wooden sword) I thought Thancred uses daggers, I thought he was Thief
    y; He has a past, he can use different weapons + we have the job system
    y; Times up
    p; looking forward to seeing you at NGC
    y; Thancred holding dagger in both hands is a bit of surprised so that’s why we didn’t put that in from the beginning.
    He's a bard by trade, but also a thief too, as well as a gladiator. And who knows what else. That my friend, is a retcon (by way of 2.2 cutscenes).

    Saying bard =/= Bard is dumb. It's the same exact wording and profession.
    (0)
    Last edited by ZReport; 04-28-2014 at 02:02 PM.

  2. #32
    Player
    Reynhart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    4,605
    Character
    Reynhart Kristensen
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    Bard has never been a class in the released game. You can't switch to one and there's no guild to support the class.
    And even in 1.0, we never saw Thancred use any Bard ability, not even singing or playing an instrument in cutscene. I don't care what "might have been", since the game was released that way far before Yoshida took it over.

    And saying that they change his class/job just through a retcon is purposely ingnoring the explanation they give in-game, which is perfecty valid, considering all we know about the character all the way from 1.0

    As for the same word meaning other thing, "maraudeur" is a common word for thief or bandit too. Some townspeople can use this word without implying that the person they're talking are member of the maraudeur's guild and have been train in the axe way. The same si true for bard.
    (0)

  3. #33
    Player
    ZReport's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    364
    Character
    Sho Ryuuken
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 50
    You don't have to see him use an ability, he called himself a bard as well as had other people call him the same. So what do you think it entails then? He's just some wandering person with daggers who sings to people?

    I already mentioned before that you don't have to see him in game using Bard abilities, mainly because the game at that time didn't have any assets of Bard built into the game at that time, something that can always be changed even now. And retconning doesn't ignore the explanation, it re-purposes it. Instead of being a bow wielding bard, he's a dagger wielding/throwing bard. It's just that simple.

    I mean you have Yoshi-P himself stating right above you in quotes saying he's a jack-of-trades, using different weapons + the job system. I'm not sure what more you people want, after Yoshi-P stating this as fact. It's ok to have an NPC who knows many different styles. It does happen in an [MMO]RPG world.
    (0)
    Last edited by ZReport; 04-28-2014 at 10:05 PM.

  4. #34
    Player
    Falen's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    71
    Character
    F'ahlen Angelis
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    My point, accentuated by Reynhart is the difference of a Proper Noun and a Common Noun.
    Bard is a proper noun in that it refers to a specific entity and profession in Eorzea, where bard is another name for an entertainer. From the lv.35 Bard quest;
    Jehantel: Realizing the tactical potential of song, yet loath to set aside skilled archers for that purpose, armies began raising dedicated regiments of minstrels. But the members of such units were no warriors, <PC>. Fair of voice and nimble of finger, these career minstrels could find a place in the hall of any lord.
    More importantly, earlier in the quest;
    Jehantel: Such songs as those performed by tavern bards serve no purpose beyond the amusement of drunkards.
    Are these "tavern bards" Bards? No, they aren't. Or how about the warriors in that earlier quote? Are they Warriors? Or the Warriors of Light, are they all Warriors? No, but they are all warriors.
    (8)

  5. #35
    Player PArcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,580
    Character
    Kytre Ashaer
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Falen View Post
    My point, accentuated by Reynhart is the difference of a Proper Noun and a Common Noun.
    Bard is a proper noun in that it refers to a specific entity and profession in Eorzea, where bard is another name for an entertainer. From the lv.35 Bard quest;

    More importantly, earlier in the quest;

    Are these "tavern bards" Bards? No, they aren't. Or how about the warriors in that earlier quote? Are they Warriors? Or the Warriors of Light, are they all Warriors? No, but they are all warriors.
    To add, I'm sure not all of those who participate in gladiatorial events are Gladiators; I know you make an axe in one BSM quest for a participant, and there's all those gladiators in Halitali HM (CNJ, LNC, MRD, ARC pop to mind...) who are not Gladiators.
    (1)

  6. #36
    Player
    ZReport's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    364
    Character
    Sho Ryuuken
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Armorer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Falen View Post
    My point, accentuated by Reynhart is the difference of a Proper Noun and a Common Noun. Bard is a proper noun in that it refers to a specific entity and profession in Eorzea, where bard is another name for an entertainer. From the lv.35 Bard quest;

    More importantly, earlier in the quest;

    Are these "tavern bards" Bards? No, they aren't. Or how about the warriors in that earlier quote? Are they Warriors? Or the Warriors of Light, are they all Warriors? No, but they are all warriors.
    I still think you're reading into it too deeply. You can easily interpret the two quotes as followed:

    Jehantel: Realizing the tactical potential of song, yet loath to set aside skilled archers for that purpose, armies began raising dedicated regiments of minstrels. But the members of such units were no warriors, <PC>. Fair of voice and nimble of finger, these career minstrels could find a place in the hall of any lord.
    Jehantel: Such songs as those performed by tavern bards serve no purpose beyond the amusement of drunkards.
    Jehantel is giving you an historical description of how "battle bards" came about. So here I agree with you. So for the sake of further argument, I will call 'bard' minstrel. There are bards who sing just to sing as minstrels, and there are bards who have adapted their abilities for battle. However, this does not necessarily imply that Thancred is just a simple minstrel, especially since we've seen him fight on many occasions. Are we really going to sit here and call Thancred a simple "tavern bard"? To imply that is stating that he is either:

    1) Devoid of any tactical abilities in the Bard profession.
    2) Lying about the fact that he is actually a Thief under the guise of being a Bard (or minstrel).
    3) A Thief who is proficient in multiple weapons.
    4) A mixture of 2 & 3.

    I state this fact because again, Yoshi-P very recently came out on record stating that Thancred can make use of multiple weapons. He then states the bit about the job system, implying that he has multiple professions as well. I think we can all agree on him being a true Thief underneath it all, however. So I'ma have to continue in the reasoning that yes, he is a Bard. However, he's also a Thief (or whatever they will call the base class), and a Gladiator as well.

    The bit about "warriors" as well as PArcher's comment on "gladiators" falls outside of the scope of the argument. This is in the same vein as addressing a mixed gender group with a masculine term. For example, you might address a group of friends with "Hey Guys" or "You guys" -- there might be women in there, but you don't mean they are men, they simply fall under that term. We call ourselves Warriors of Light, but of course we all have different professions in game. "Gladiators" do combat in an arena, but of course they have different professions. They are blanket words unlike differentiating a minstrel from a battle bard.
    (0)

  7. #37
    Player
    BrielleBeaudonet's Avatar
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    Apr 2014
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    80
    Character
    Brielle Beaudonet
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Reynhart View Post
    As for Yugiri, she's pretty much a Ninja, and if you recall Final Fantasy I, Thief evolved into Ninja. So the "our fighting style is similar" is there to reminds us of that link between the two.
    . . .
    AND we'll see two-handed "sabers" for the second job associated with Thief, which I think will be Samurai.
    Everything that you've said makes perfect sense to me. A Thief guild opens in Limsa, possibly relating to / receiving quests from / interacting with Thancred on occasion. At Thief 30 and some other class reaching 15, the Thieves have you go meet with Yugiri for the Ninja job. Or maybe she'll teach the Samurai job at Thief 15 and some other class reaching 30 (MRD? GLD?). I could see Thancred and Yugiri being the "mentors" for Thief and Samurai, respectively, or maybe Samurai isn't a thing and Yugiri just teaches the Ninja job.
    (0)

  8. #38
    Player
    Saikou's Avatar
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    Feb 2013
    Location
    Gridania (Immortal Flames)
    Posts
    214
    Character
    Hiromi Saikou
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 58
    I'm going to answer all of this discussion with 5 words: Segregation of Gameplay and Story. Thancred has been described as a bard. Based on his personality, we can infer that he has almost certainly acted as a minstrel off the battlefield. Thancred has demonstrated no unique Bard Magic, however. More clearly defined characters, like Papalymo in the notorious Future's Perfect cutscene, were shown acting as implemented classes using unknown abilities. The aerial dagger barrage is Thancred's "cutscene ability" seen in both 1.0 and ARR. I think it's entirely possible that Thancred is a small "b" bard and not the kind that is learned it the ways of Bard Magic that is taught to exceptional Archers of the realm. In the original Japanese, the word for they use for Bard can be translated as "poet." When interacted with in ARR as an NPC, he's often caught composing something. That he is a bard in the traditional sense seems pretty clear. That he is a Bard in the combat sense... we have no evidence for that at all as Thancred does not sing or use instruments in battle.

    I'll throw fuel on the fire by asserting that there is a difference between a minstrel and a combat Bard, and that it is far more likely that Thancred is the latter. I'll add more kindling by agreeing with those who claim that what his class is for gameplay purposes doesn't necessarily correspond to what his class in lore is. Again, segregation of lore and gameplay. I find it amusing that, when he accompanied you into battle in 1.0, he held his dagger close to his left shoulder. This is an awkward posture, unless... Look at a screenshot of a Ninja holding only 1 Katana in FFXI. The pose is about the same. It looks very awkward unless the offhand is armed and bared as well. The offhand is held in reverse grip to be more useful for parrying incoming blows while the mainhand is held normally in a position to go on the offensive. But let us damn practical considerations to hell and bind ourselves to only what is implemented in the game. Uriager was an Arcanist before Arcanists used books and had pets, after all. The original Arcanist concept was much different than what we got in ARR. It had been intended to be a pure debuff class. As mentioned elsewhere, we have no idea what a possible Bard Class under Tanaka would have looked like. Thaumaturge eventually got to kill things with Fire as seen by Papalymo in the Future's Perfect cutscene, hopefully our Dagger class will get to rain shivs down on its enemies like Thancred can.

    In all of this, the biggest lore goof seems to be having Than say that his homeland is Sharlayan, the island thereof, like the rest of the Archons and then having it be implied that he actually grew up as part of The Fraternity in Limsa. Well, actually... is it explicitly stated that he grew up there, that he was originally from Limsa? Its quite possible that he moved around a lot before Louisoix found him. That certainly seems in his character. As has been said by others, what has been lost by his characters and the other Archons is the mystery aspect. Their personalities have also been somewhat altered by the manic-depressive tone that the game now has, alternating between the old 1.0 "Game of Thrones" tone to the ARR "Traditional Final Fantasy" tone. I made a thread dedicated to this dichotomy of ambiance, actually. I will not deny that it seems like the role of all 5 remaining Circle of Knowing Archons has been diminished in favor of giving the player more prominence in the story. They go with us on main story quests, often arriving late to the party or getting into situations where we must rescue them. They are no longer in the habit of taking bullets from Garleans for us. It seems like they weren't given nearly as much exposition nor action moments as in ARR.
    (1)

  9. #39
    Player PArcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,580
    Character
    Kytre Ashaer
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by ZReport View Post
    The bit about "warriors" as well as PArcher's comment on "gladiators" falls outside of the scope of the argument. This is in the same vein as addressing a mixed gender group with a masculine term. For example, you might address a group of friends with "Hey Guys" or "You guys" -- there might be women in there, but you don't mean they are men, they simply fall under that term. We call ourselves Warriors of Light, but of course we all have different professions in game. "Gladiators" do combat in an arena, but of course they have different professions. They are blanket words unlike differentiating a minstrel from a battle bard.
    First, a correction...the term "guys" (plural) is actually genderless...so it is as appropriate to call a group of women "guys" as it is men.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guy
    "b : person —used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex <saw her and the rest of the guys>"
    On-topic, the difference between Bard and bard, Gladiator and gladiator and Warrior and warrior is the exact same thing. One is a specific job/class, the other is a broad profession. Generic vs specific.

    And its been said, in-game for that matter, that bard =/= Bard. Go look over the Bard quests again.
    (2)

  10. #40
    Player
    Dijana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    The Goblet
    Posts
    696
    Character
    Dijana Menatas
    World
    Zurvan
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 90
    Maybe backtracking a bit, but I'll point out (dont think anyone else did, I skimmed part of this thread) the abilities these npc's display aren't always indicative of their class. If you start in gridania or ul'dah and do the fights where thancred/yda and papalymo help out, they're casting cure on you, despite no explanation or indication that they studied conjuration. It's just a gameplay mechanic to help out if you dont have the means to heal yourself.


    Whatever thancred was meant to be in 1.0, its clear he's not a typical gladiator. He has some past he's obviously ashamed or embarrassed about, and feels the gladiator's swordsmanship is more 'refined' than the dagger style he is clearly more proficient in. Maybe he just calls himself a bard because it sounds better than 'scoundrel' while he's on this path of self improvement (seems that way to me, he's putting on acts and using skills different to what he was used to). Traditionally, aside from the singing, bards come pretty close to thieves and scoundrels often.

    Gameplay wise, maybe they didnt want to show off a dagger wielding thief style class until they were ready, hence keeping thancred using gladiator animations. I also think its entirely possible that whatever thancred really is, is the base class, and yugiri's style is the job. She may introduce her ninja style to the lominsan scoundrels to further their abilities, rather than being a seperate job to 'thief.'
    (2)

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