Death Penalty

[geniusprime]

Ummm, the OP refers to death being a penalty in and of itself...but how is that the case when you can respawn? At most, the death itself is a minor inconvenience. In my opinion, there must be penalties involved, otherwise strategy goes out the window.

Because when you die you respawn at the last location. That is not a reward but a penalty because of dying. Strategy does not exist because of death penalty. By the logic you are using there is no strategy in RTS, which obviously wouldn't make sense. There are many games in which the sensation of danger and the need for strategy is very effective and none of these games have such a concept as death penalty. Why is it that the concept must exist in games like these to achieve the same results? There are alternative ways of achieving the desired results without using the current archaic methods.

[Viridiana]

Because when you die you respawn at the last location. That is not a reward but a penalty because of dying. Strategy does not exist because of death penalty. By the logic you are using there is no strategy in RTS, which obviously wouldn't make sense. There are many games in which the sensation of danger and the need for strategy is very effective and none of these games have such a concept as death penalty. Why is it that the concept must exist in games like these to achieve the same results? There are alternative ways of achieving the desired results without using the current archaic methods.

And that, I believe, is where you're fundamentally wrong. SE is actually about to remove the already-low 1 Anima cost for Returning to your last crystal exactly because so many people were suicide-porting. So, yes, that is actually a reward, or, at the very least, not a penalty.

[darkstarpoet1]

And that, I believe, is where you're fundamentally wrong. SE is actually about to remove the already-low 1 Anima cost for Returning to your last crystal exactly because so many people were suicide-porting. So, yes, that is actually a reward, or, at the very least, not a penalty.

ummm if you suicide ported you had ZERO anima cost.

[Viridiana]

ummm if you suicide ported you had ZERO anima cost.

That was my point, actually. >_>

They're removing the 1 Anima cost on normal Return because so many people were suicide-returning for free.

[darkstarpoet1]

That was my point, actually. >_>

They're removing the 1 Anima cost on normal Return because so many people were suicide-returning for free.

oh my apologies. i thought i had read he wanted to do more to keep people from death porting. if this is the case he is actually going to push more into doing it. i use return alot so if it gets removed i'll just start death porting then. at least return was beneficial.

[geniusprime]

And that, I believe, is where you're fundamentally wrong. SE is actually about to remove the already-low 1 Anima cost for Returning to your last crystal exactly because so many people were suicide-porting. So, yes, that is actually a reward, or, at the very least, not a penalty.

It is a penalty if it is NOT my intentions to die. Folks using death in this manner is clearly showing that traveling is flawed.

[Viridiana]

It is a penalty if it is NOT my intentions to die. Folks using death in this manner is clearly showing that traveling is flawed.

No, the fact that people can, and regularly do, suicide-port is evidence that there isn't enough of a punishment to actually dissuade dying.

[Preypacer]

It is a penalty if it is NOT my intentions to die. Folks using death in this manner is clearly showing that traveling is flawed.

Impressive. You manage to spin the situation *and* dodge the actual argument all in one statement.

Nonetheless, that's all you're doing, and that dog won't hunt.

It's not just a FFXIV thing, it's a MMO's in general thing.

Death is used for convenient travel in myriad other MMOs... all of them being of the "casual friendly" nature that SE is attempting with XIV. It's used as such because death has zero sting, zero meaningful consequence.

There's no reason to serious try to avoid dying because dying is absolutely meaningless.

And again, no matter how many times some folks might repeat the mantra that "dying is enough punishment itself to try to avoid it", it doesn't pan out in practice. All you need to do is spend some time in a casual-friendly MMO with a lax death penalty and witness how people actually play it. Go up to people in FFXIV zombie-zerging their way to victory in a guildleve, or people "graveyard hopping" their way across the map in other similarly "casual" MMOs and ask them how much of an incentive the "failure of dying itself" is for them to try avoiding it. It's an oft repeated meme that is not supported by reality.

If the death penalty is so inconsequential that players find it to be a convenient mode of transportation - even when flight paths, teleports, warp scrolls and other various modes of travel are available, convenient and plentiful - there's a problem with the penalty for dying.. not with the travel system.

[Physic]

Impressive. You manage to spin the situation *and* dodge the actual argument all in one statement.

Nonetheless, that's all you're doing, and that dog won't hunt.

It's not just a FFXIV thing, it's a MMO's in general thing.

Death is used for convenient travel in myriad other MMOs... all of them being of the "casual friendly" nature that SE is attempting with XIV. It's used as such because death has zero sting, zero meaningful consequence.

If the death penalty is so inconsequential that players find it to be a convenient mode of transportation - even when flight paths, teleports, warp scrolls and other various modes of travel are available, convenient and plentiful - there's a problem with the penalty for dying.. not with the travel system.

uhh i death warped in FFXI, i just had a class i didnt care about. And why should death matter when it doesnt matter. Dying in town by drinking a poison potion really should be the same as fighting some epic god?

death penalties dont even make sense, it ends up usually being a time sink by the end of the game, because any content worth being entertaining end game, should have a chance of killing you. So if your designing a game knowing that you will kill people (hello dynamis suicide pulls and NM with Death spells) then why are you going to turn around and tell them they have to go level up for 10% more of their tnl because they suck so bad that they played exactly as they were supposed to.

[akisato]

uhh i death warped in FFXI, i just had a class i didnt care about. And why should death matter when it doesnt matter. Dying in town by drinking a poison potion really should be the same as fighting some epic god?

death penalties dont even make sense, it ends up usually being a time sink by the end of the game, because any content worth being entertaining end game, should have a chance of killing you. So if your designing a game knowing that you will kill people (hello dynamis suicide pulls and NM with Death spells) then why are you going to turn around and tell them they have to go level up for 10% more of their tnl because they suck so bad that they played exactly as they were supposed to.

I never thought of it like this but your right. its quite silly to send ppl to do thing that you know that will kill them than make them work the exp back.