Death Penalty

[Spellstar]

Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

Try Lord of the Rings online, return to local death point (just like ffxiv) but with 10minute sickness. ffxiv only has 3mins!

So there are other games that provide death penalty. Lord of the Rings online is just one. Try googling or actually playing some other mmo's before you make statements you dont know much about ! Otherwise you will just sound like an idiot XD

[Amage]

First don't ever talk about realism in a fantasy game or any game as a matter of fact. Its a game. Games are not real and the purpose of games are for fun not to simulate reality. When they begin to simulate reality they become a simulation and not a game.

Secondly the death penalties you're referring to are archaic mechanisms. Probably I don't play those archaic games but I am not aware of any modern game that still gives the DP you mentioned except for FFXI. So referring to old ancient MMO or stating games in which its worse does not make the current DP in this games and other games justifiable.

How does death penalty gives the player incentives to play better? Isn't it better to reward for playing better than to punish for not playing good? When you die you have been penalized by DEATH. Why add more?

I also don't understand what you mean by "zombeing" your way through challenges. I have no problem with a gamer dying and returning to the last checkpoint. Thats fine, for it works out as a reset. However, all of the added penalties are unnecessary.

When you die in this game you are sent back to the last crystal. Which is fine but then you are practically useless for three minutes because now its harder to play because of weakness. And this difficulty is not just because of health reduction but a reduction in everything else. Three minutes of doing more or less nothing. Yes I can browse the net, get a cup of coffee etc but the object of a game is to keep the gamer playing.

Just saying go to the newer stay "Super Easy Mode MMO" and leave us retro MMO players alone..

[DoctorMog]

...steep...

Try losing 10% of your levels XP and then come back to reality.

[geniusprime]

...steep...

Try losing 10% of your levels XP and then come back to reality.

I tried it, I didn't like it and as I said before this is not the only game which is victim to this. When I first played FFXI and I realized that you can level down I was baffled by the logic behind such a penalty and I am still baffled. Not because other games have worse does not make this better. Its like saying that the camera is bad in GameX then point out a game that has possibly the worse camera system. Whats the point of mentioning the game with the horrible camera? It does not justify the bad camera in GameX if you get what I am saying.

[Kiara]

Hi geniusprime,

From a perspective of all types of games, having a "Death Penalty" definitely seems a bit excessive (if you're used to playing Mario Bros. or any platformer, you die, and respawn and continue on your way).

Does FF XIV (or any MMORPG) *need* a Death Penalty? It's an interesting question.

I would say that right now, in FF XIV, it truly is very "light" and "easy" in its Death Penalty compared to many other MMORPGS as Caerith mentions, and IMHO, the game lacks any sense of real danger. Even in light of Non-MMOs, having the current penalty of just 3 minutes where you are Weakened (Less HP, Slowed Timers for Weaponskills and Spells) doesn't feel that penalizing in this fantasy world.

If you see a Rank 99 Goblin Headman, you can rush headlong into battle and if you get killed? It doesn't matter. You just "Return" and are slightly Weakened for 3 minutes. See a Rank 79 Inferno Drake (that looks quite dangerous)? You can just rush right up to it, try to kill it, or laugh as you get destroyed by its Weaponskill in 1 hit. The only penalty is a Weakened State for 3 minutes.

Even the 5 big Notorious Monsters in the game (already quite easy)... you don't feel a sense of danger or nervousness. You know the worst that can happen is that you just respawn and wait 3 minutes to be fully 100% again.

There is something that's taken away from you (as a gamer) when you don't have to worry about repercussions very much.

I'm not advocating anything like FF XI - where you lose XP and can De-Level (that's horrible) - but if you're asking them to make it easier than it currently is (removing any Death Penalty), I think it would then completely remove any sense of trepidation or feeling of "excitement" or "nervousness."

When they add End Game Bosses, something super hard, and if you have No Death Penalty, what Caerith means by "zombie-ing" is you can just die, respawn, do a little more damage on the Boss, die, respawn, repeat non-stop until the Boss is dead. This requires very little skill from the Player, and is a rush tactic that's used even now in FF XIV with the light Death Penalty you're talking about.

I think that's the part that would be hard to balance for the FF Team. If you can just die and respawn and keep trying with zero penalty is that fun?

To be fair, they could probably just reset the Boss' HP each time your party wipes, but then, what about if only *some* of the Party Members die? As long as someone's alive, the Boss doesn't reset HP and you can have an infinite respawn and do slight damage and rush the Boss to death.

I remember reading about Prince of Persia having No Game Over. If you "died," you just respawned immediately to try again.

Ideally, it should just be about figuring out tactics and strategies, and the fun and challenge should be about that aspect, and not Death Penalties, sure. But I think without some Penalty, you lose any sense of thrill and excitement (you know you just respawn immediately and can continue).

[geniusprime]

I understand where your coming from. However, the penalties does not give a sense of danger it only makes you dread the hassle. The majority of death penalties are hassles and most dread the hassle.

Now picture this. The only direct death penalty is reverting to the last crystal. However, for the folks that actively stay alive are rewarded with boons/bonuses. I used actively in the sense that the gamer must be engaging and surviving battles over a specified time. These bonuses are also time based so in order to maintain it you must actively stay alive (actively engage in battle and survive). Now that the gamer who is actively staying alive has something that is precious (the boons/bonuses) and he or she would try their best to maintain these benefits by staying alive. If you die, you lose your bonus and you will have to rebuild the requirements to gain the boons lost.

That too me is a better solution than the current methods of death penalty.

"If you see a Rank 99 Goblin Headman, you can rush headlong into battle and if you get killed? It doesn't matter. You just "Return" and are slightly Weakened for 3 minutes. See a Rank 79 Inferno Drake (that looks quite dangerous)? You can just rush right up to it, try to kill it, or laugh as you get destroyed by its Weaponskill in 1 hit. The only penalty is a Weakened State for 3 minutes."

With regards to this, the penalty is death. If a gamer wants to engage an enemy that is obviously stronger he or she should without worrying about additional penalties beyond death. It also encourages the gamer to take risk and the consequences would be death. In this game it could be more than just three minutes even if the weakness was removed because there are many locations that are more than a three minute run. I don't know about you but I do not fancy exploring the far extents of the map to die and be sent all the way back to where I started. That is not trivial to me but rather significant.

[Suzaku]

...the penalty is death.

Death is not itself a penalty. It is a state. What happens once you're dead? What effect does dying actually have? The answers to those questions are what make up a penalty for the state of being dead.

Death penalties are tricky things. They need to be severe enough to discourage dying, but not so severe that they discourage experimentation and exploration. Not getting a reward is only a penalty if you care enough about it in the first place. Failing to receive a bonus isn't inherently a penalty, unless it's a bloody good or wanted bonus.

A penalty can impact a single player or an entire group. It can affect resources or actions. The current weakness + return to aetheryte penalty targets the time resource. It can affect just you, or your group if it is necessary for you to be at full strength for the party to proceed. And if you don't wait for it to wear off, it can affect what actions you take with your character.

A massive durability hit, on the other hand, targets the money resource, but does not have any short-term or immediate effects unless you've crossed a durability threshold.

Experience penalties generally hit the time resource, and do not have an immediate impact unless one delevels or ends up creating an unacceptable XP spread in a leveling party. They are inconvenient over the long term but don't change a character's viability in the present.

Really, FFXIV's death penalty is about as mild as it could possibly get.

[Enma]

People can die without any worries... Even if you lose SP, unless it'd be 2000+ SP, people still won't care about die and this make the game less engaging. This is my opinion.

[_C-a-e-r-i-t-h_]

If you're already inclined to disagree with anything stated by people who aren't you, you should just close the thread and let it stand at that.

[geniusprime]

If you're already inclined to disagree with anything stated by people who aren't you, you should just close the thread and let it stand at that.

I apologize. I thought that forums are where people discuss different point of views, I wasn't aware that I was supposed to share my view, then you and then we are to move on. Part of a discussion is to state your view and I either agree of counter argue your statement. Nothing to complicated. You stated contrary to my view and I stated why I disagree with your counter argument. While my view is very rooted it does not mean it is unchangeable.