New Letter from the Producer, XII

[Sorel]

i dont think a dungeon should be able to be soloed

And why not?

yeah, why not?

Sure, we shouldn't be able to solo the r50 dungeon until the rank cap gets raised, but not to be able to solo the r30 dungeon at 50? Why the hell not?

let me clarify, idont think a dungeon can be soled and still consider it skillful play. A rank 50 going in a 30 dungeon is a walk in the park.
thats like me going in nanawa mines killing everything in there and soloing kokoroon. I can easily do it with little effort and dont consider it skill

If the dungeon is like the game Demon Seoul then I'm all up for it being solo, you can challenge your skills, if you think you can't pass it you can ask someone to help you. I like hard challenges but that's just a style of player, some don't like it being too hard.

/facepalm

Guys ... forest ... trees ... your focusing on the wrong thing here. So to clear this up lets say in the hypothetical game it was a PARTY of ninja boys, and a PARTY of samurai girls.

Now then. Here's the hypothetical situation in the hypothetical game.

A ninja party is in a dungeon where they have to defeat a final boss. The ninja boys uses patience, knowledge of monsters aggressive tendencies (sight, sound, etc), items, stealth abilities, and coordinated teamwork to avoid all combat until meeting the final boss ... which the ninja boys defeat in combat.

Now, a samurai party is in the same dungeon and has to defeat the same final boss. The samurai girls uses coordinated tactics, maneuvering, well-timed abilities, items, and their weapons to defeat every monster between them and the final boss ... which the samurai girls defeat in combat.

So ...

1. Which party was the more "skillfull party"?
2. Which party took more risks?
3. Which party should get more reward?
4. When should they get the reward? At the end? After reaching certain waymarkers? After defeating a monster?

[Eldaena]

/facepalm

Guys ... forest ... trees ... your focusing on the wrong thing here. So to clear this up lets say in the hypothetical game it was a PARTY of ninja boys, and a PARTY of samurai girls.

Now then. Here's the hypothetical situation in the hypothetical game.

A ninja party is in a dungeon where they have to defeat a final boss. The ninja boys uses patience, knowledge of monsters aggressive tendencies (sight, sound, etc), items, stealth abilities, and coordinated teamwork to avoid all combat until meeting the final boss ... which the ninja boys defeat in combat.

Now, a samurai party is in the same dungeon and has to defeat the same final boss. The samurai girls uses coordinated tactics, maneuvering, well-timed abilities, items, and their weapons to defeat every monster between them and the final boss ... which the samurai girls defeat in combat.

So ...

Which party was the more "skillfull party"?
Which party took more risks?
Which party should get more reward?

The only difference is Samurai party gets more exp for killing more mobs, and ninja gets more something else for speed. The end.

[Sorel]

The only difference is Samurai party gets more exp for killing more mobs, and ninja gets more something else for speed. The end.

Sorry, added a 4th question on you after you posted.

When should reward be given? Just because you kill something in a game doesn't necessarily mean that game gives you a reward for it. The monster you kill could be guarding a gate, and getting past that gate is what gets you rewarded, not killing the monster in and of itself.

Would a reward system like that reward more or less skillful play in your opinion?

[Reinheart]

So ...

1. Which party was the more "skillfull party"? me, myself, I, and Ore (JP for me), there 4 members I got myself a light party.
2. Which party took more risks? mine because we all had subligar, and we risked our subligar to be scratched.
3. Which party should get more reward? mine because my subligar says so.
4. When should they get the reward? At the end? After reaching certain waymarkers? After defeating a monster? After walking out of the dungeon while singing we are the champions (in subligar of course.)

On honest response why not just make it so it tallies up all the things you did throughout the dungeon and reward after. Win or Lose.

While you're running through the dungeon you either get exp as usual, or nothing at all while in dungeon but once you finish the dungeon it calculates how many mobs you killed, how many traps you where able to pass, how many hidden treasure you found, how fast you cleared, etc...etc... and depending on that it gives you whatever bonus or total exp + reward gil, items, etc.

Only problem with that is this is MMO (easy to do in non online game I think) and you have to think what if player disconnects during the dungeon, then what happens? Dunno how to resolve this part, doubt server can keep record of that info for long time if that player don't return right away or something.

[Seirra_Lanzce]

there.....

my mouse magicly click on the like button without my attention O_O

[Reinheart]

my mouse magicly click on the like button without my attention O_O

It's the power of subligar.

I fixed the post with my thoughts on it afterwards lol.

[Sorel]

On honest response why not just make it so it tallies up all the things you did throughout the dungeon and reward after. Win or Lose.

While you're running through the dungeon you either get exp as usual, or nothing at all while in dungeon but once you finish the dungeon it calculates how many mobs you killed, how fast you cleared and depending on that it gives you whatever bonus or total exp + reward gil, items, etc.

Only problem with that is this is MMO (easy to do in non online game I think) and you have to think what if player disconnects during the dungeon, then what happens? Dunno how to resolve this part, doubt server can keep record of that info for long time if that player don't return right away or something.

So if I understand you correctly, you would have the Samurai Girl party get more reward because they killed more monsters. Is that a correct inference?

Also, you have not weighed in on whether the Ninja Boys or the Samurai Girls were more skillful, in your opinion.

[Reinheart]

So if I understand you correctly, you would have the Samurai Girl party get more reward because they killed more monsters. Is that a correct inference?

Also, you have not weighed in on whether the Ninja Boys or the Samurai Girls were more skillful, in your opinion.

Dunno it all depends on the system and types of rewards it gives. Like say one type of game you play through the game finding all the items, killing as much mobs as you can, don't matter how many lives you lost during the missions but you get all the rewards (trophies) but then again there are trophies for finishing the missions as fast as you can. If you want to get ALL the trophies you would have to play the game through several times. Same can be applied to this.

So both are skilled.
To obtain reward option A (Only can be obtain by speed) - Ninja Boy's will be the way
To obtain reward option B (Only can be obtained by killing all the mobs, etc) - Samurai Girls will be the way.
To get both A & B you would have to play both.

But since I'm a sublimen... i don't fall under both... I'm chuck norris of XI/XIV... nothing is better than subligar...

[Sorel]

Dunno it all depends on the system and types of rewards it gives. Like say one type of game you play through the game finding all the items, killing as much mobs as you can, don't matter how many lives you lost during the missions but you get all the rewards (trophies) but then again there are trophies for finishing the missions as fast as you can. If you want to get ALL the trophies you would have to play the game through several times. Same can be applied to this.

So both are skilled.
To obtain reward option A (Only can be obtain by speed) - Ninja Boy's will be the way
To obtain reward option B (Only can be obtained by killing all the mobs, etc) - Samurai Girls will be the way.
To get both A & B you would have to play both.

Let's say that both parties, and therefore both methods, take the same amount of time. Time that the Samurai Girl party use for combat is also time the Ninja Boy party uses to avoid encounters. They both would defeat the final boss in the same amount of time. That makes time a non-factor in determining which method gets the most reward.

What I'm trying to do is find out what everyone thinks is "skillful". Everyone agrees that skillfulness should be rewarded, but if we can't figure out what skillfulness actually IS ... how can we properly reward it?? And how can we help direct the Development Team on how to reward it??

Is it speed killing? Is it slow killing? Is it even killing at all??

Should we even be rewarding based on skill? Or should we be rewarding based on difficulty ... or risk??

[Reinheart]

Let's say that both parties, and therefore both methods, take the same amount of time. Time that the Samurai Girl party use for combat is also time the Ninja Boy party uses to avoid encounters. They both would defeat the final boss in the same amount of time. That makes time a non-factor in determining which method gets the most reward.

What I'm trying to do is find out what everyone thinks is "skillful". Everyone agrees that skillfulness should be rewarded, but if we can't figure out what skillfulness actually IS ... how can we properly reward it?? And how can we help direct the Development Team on how to reward it??

Is it speed killing? Is it slow killing? Is it even killing at all??

Should we even be rewarding based on skill? Or should we be rewarding based on difficulty ... or risk??

Well say for now just for exp bonus leaving items rewards aside.
Could be like this no?
EXP bonus per monster killed = 250
EXP bonus per traps avoided = 100

Just for example: Dungeon has 1 boss, 20 mobs, 50 traps.

Samurai Girls killed 20 mobs = 5000 exp bonus

Say the trap is like the one you mentioned earlier where you can choose to find a way not to kill a monster guarding a gate, but you may also kill the monster to go through.

Samurai Girls didn't wait and just zerk killed the monster guarding the gate, so they wont be rewarded with the trap bonus.

On the other hand Ninja Boys didn't kill any mobs but in order to avoid all mobs they took the route where they had to solve puzzles, dodge traps, find ways to get through monster guarding the gate, total 50 traps.

Ninja Boys unlocked 50 traps = 5000 exp bonus.

then what? w
Instead of exp if that was in a scoring method and you can give rewards depending on total end score, so both Ninja Boys and Samurai Girls will have same reward but did totally different thing because of the same scoring method. But if exp is rewarded from killing mobs then Samurai Girls would of benefited little more from that since its Reward + EXP for killing mobs. (Unless there is a way to restrict getting exp while in dungeon, until finished.)