Plan to remove benefit for failing leves?

[Jaide]

To OP: How about the fact that I purchased my game with my own funds and I will continue to play how I see fit. If you do not like the current system or the way certain people play I suggest you find another game. This is the dumbest thread ever, your basically crying because people aren't worrying about faction credits or class marks by finishing the leves. How about you play the game the way you want to play it and I will play it my way. I don't complain about you completing them do I? This is the dumbest argument ever put on these forums, it's basically you whining that you want more for completing them. If they fix it, I will complete them, but as it is now I want levels more than completing a quest...I'm sorry but I don't give a **** what you call it, cheating, exploiting, whatever...it's avaiable and I'm going to do it, because I paid my money.

I never called it cheating. The first paragraph of my post stated that I didn't care whether it was considered cheating or not. An exploit merely means to take advantage of something to get ahead - which is what this is - taking advantage of a broken system. Defending a broken system because you benefit from it doesn't change the fact that it's broken and needs to be fixed. Go ahead and exploit it all you want - the point of this thread wasn't to call out those who are doing it, but rather to ensure there was a plan to get it fixed in the future. We got an answer from Bayohne so the thread was hardly the 'dumbest thread ever', but thanks for your opinion.

Your "I paid my money, I do what I want!" attitude isn't really helping the game get any better either.

[Altano]

I never called it cheating. The first paragraph of my post stated that I didn't care whether it was considered cheating or not. An exploit merely means to take advantage of something to get ahead - which is what this is - taking advantage of a broken system. Defending a broken system because you benefit from it doesn't change the fact that it's broken and needs to be fixed. Go ahead and exploit it all you want - the point of this thread wasn't to call out those who are doing it, but rather to ensure there was a plan to get it fixed in the future. We got an answer from Bayohne so the thread was hardly the 'dumbest thread ever', but thanks for your opinion.

Your "I paid my money, I do what I want!" attitude isn't really helping the game get any better either.

The problem is your use of the word "exploit." You are not using it in a neutral sense, and, in fact, the way you are presenting it clearly has a pejorative connotation. Moreover, you have simply declared this to be a broken system without proving it, yet you have plenty of people on the other side who see it as working fine. Sure it can be refined, but many people do not see it needing to be "fixed," in the sense of some grand overhaul. You have presumed from the outset that your stance is the correct one and that labeled anybody who disagrees with you as defending and/or exploiting a broken system to get ahead of everybody else (who presumably is ethical in your opinion). That's the problem.

[normalforce]

Oh god yes. Whoever designed defense leves should be fired and then publicly shamed.

That kind of horrible game design is completely mind boggling.

Sorry, I don't think I've had the pleasure. What is a defense leve?

EDIT: Missed the follow up posts about them. So, it's no Expeditionary Force from FFXI then?

[Amsai]

Yes. Lets please do something (positive or negative reinforcement) to stop people from failing leves on purpose.

[Jaide]

The problem is your use of the word "exploit." You are not using it in a neutral sense, and, in fact, the way you are presenting it clearly has a pejorative connotation. Moreover, you have simply declared this to be a broken system without proving it, yet you have plenty of people on the other side who see it as working fine. Sure it can be refined, but many people do not see it needing to be "fixed," in the sense of some grand overhaul. You have presumed from the outset that your stance is the correct one and that labeled anybody who disagrees with you as defending and/or exploiting a broken system to get ahead of everybody else (who presumably is ethical in your opinion). That's the problem.

First, not attacking you Altano - your opinion is a valid observation.

but..

Who intentionally designs a system where failing is preferable to succeeding? I just thought it would require a little common sense to understand SE didn't intend for this behavior when they designed the system, and therefore I wouldn't need to prove anything. Regardless, the fact that they are working on a fix has provided the proof since I wrote my original post and before the post I just responded to previously. I could go into further detail as to why leaving things the way they are is bad for the game, but since I already know they're working on it there's really no point.

It has nothing to do with ethics, but rather with people who argue against fixing the game because they're benefiting from pieces of it that were poorly implemented. Those people irritate me yes, so maybe the tone of my posts is slanted, but I never called them cheaters. Whenever this issue gets brought up there's always people who immediately jump on it in an attempt to defend their actions regardless of what you say. "It's not cheating, SE said so!" Give me a break.

[Jaide]

Sorry, I don't think I've had the pleasure. What is a defense leve?

EDIT: Missed the follow up posts about them. So, it's no Expeditionary Force from FFXI then?

You stand in one place for about five minutes waiting for waves of enemies to attack you. The problem is, the intervals are too far apart and frequently you're left standing around for several minutes waiting for the leve to end after you've finished off the last wave. I think they'd be more interesting if you were attacked by more often and something always spawned at the end.

[Altano]

First, not attacking you Altano - your opinion is a valid observation.

but..

Who intentionally designs a system where failing is preferable to succeeding? I just thought it would require a little common sense to understand SE didn't intend for this behavior when they designed the system, and therefore I wouldn't need to prove anything. Regardless, the fact that they are working on a fix has provided the proof since I wrote my original post and before the post I just responded to previously. I could go into further detail as to why leaving things the way they are is bad for the game, but since I already know they're working on it there's really no point.

It has nothing to do with ethics, but rather with people who argue against fixing the game because they're benefiting from pieces of it that were poorly implemented. Those people irritate me yes, so maybe the tone of my posts is slanted, but I never called them cheaters. Whenever this issue gets brought up there's always people who immediately jump on it in an attempt to defend their actions regardless of what you say. "It's not cheating, SE said so!" Give me a break.

The question is, why does it bother you so much if they're using a system in a way it wasn't intended? Plenty of systems have been used in plenty of MMOs in ways they were never intended. What makes something an exploit of a broken system as opposed to creative thinking? You don't like the concept of people failing on purpose. But as I've pointed out in an earlier post, it's been done before and not in just isolated circumstances and people have had no problems with it. You disliking it doesn't alone make the system broken, even if you think it is "common sense." If SE has come out and said it isn't cheating, then really what leg do you have to stand on?

Again, I don't think the term "fixing" is appropriate, because adding a bonus more like an adjustment, for the following reason: I honestly doubt a SP bonus for finishing the leves will change this behavior because the problem is, as many have pointed out, in linking leves. SP comes incredibly quickly when you link the hyper-profitable leves, and being guaranteed the same leves with a static group every 36 hours is almost surely going to still be a better tradeoff than taking the completion bonus. Unless the bonus is so large that it breaks leve-linking. At which point we're back to the "nobody ever parties in FFXIV" problem.

[Jibe]

While the current situation where players intentionally fail leves is not against the rules of the current game design, it obviously doesn't foster a healthy game environment. In our future plans for Guildleves, we don't plan on adding a penalty for failing, but instead plan to include a bonus for completion.

Thank you so much! Finally someone from SE agrees that this doesn't foster a good game environment. It's good to know that they feel this way and are doing something to change it.

EDIT: well, token effort to change it anyways.

EDIT EDIT: but, they did at least acknowledge the problem. half the battle yay!

[Jibe]

I agree with every post Jaide made in this thread.

[Icopico]

While the current situation where players intentionally fail leves is not against the rules of the current game design, it obviously doesn't foster a healthy game environment. In our future plans for Guildleves, we don't plan on adding a penalty for failing, but instead plan to include a bonus for completion.

If the Guildleve completion reward was 2-5 Anima each, i bet there will be A LOT of people completing them.