Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

The optional cap proposed by Perrin would be just fine, IMO.

capped dungeon run - be eligible for good item drops

uncapped dungeon run - not be eligible for good item drops

Would be perfectly fine and solve nearly all the problems.

No, it wouldn't. You would face the exact same problem for r50s. They will run it a few times to experience the challenge and then move on.

I perceive we are in competition because we are. It is human nature to measure one's own success against another's. In real life we want to be better than the next guy, hav more money, have a bigger house, nicer car, better job, etc. In an MMO, it's the same way. We play the game in order to increase our own virtual standing. In a single player game, it only has merit to each individual player, and therefore your argument about your actions not affecting me would be valid.

But this is not a single player game. The relative and perceived value of our items is measured in not only our self-identified personal worth, but also by how much better/worse they are compared to everyone else's items. Having good items means you put in a lot of effort to get them.

You would say, "but that's what the rank 50 stuff is for!", and yes, that is what it is for, I know that. However, the fundamental flaw that many MMOs have nowadays is that they are only balanced for end-game and everything up until then is meaningless.

What if it wasn't?

What if you could get the same feeling of status and e-peen at rank 30 as you can at rank 50?

Applying challenge in the right areas,
with an appropriate degree of difficulty,
strictly balanced in order to promote fun and not discouragement,

Is one of the many keys to the success of an MMO.

I want FF14 to be that MMO that gets right what other MMOs get wrong.

So your perception of the experience is more important than mine and those that don't want the cap? Because that is essentially what you are saying.

The problem is this: You ask why can't everything in game be balanced? Why can't you stroke your e-peen at r30 content? Because it's not realistic! Even in life it's not realistic! I don't compare my accomplishments in life to my 8 year old daughter. I don't race her to the car and then laugh in her face when I stomp her. I am bigger, stronger, faster, more educated than my 8 year old. When I tell my friends that I beat my 8 year old at basketball, they don't go "OOOOOHHHH PWND THAT GIRL IN DA FACE!"

A r50 is more advanced than a r30. How is anything you can accomplish at r30 anywhere near equal to what you can accomplish as a r50?

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Everyone would, if they don't want their end-game gear build to be gimp, and if they want to equip their lower classes with the best gear.

Seer's Cowl
Bilaud
Veneer Bracers
Kokoroon Armor
Elmo
Penance
Eternal Shade
Nightawk Visor


ALL of these items are end-game, and all of them are the best items for mid-rank.

No one wants to buy haubergeons anymore because kokoroon armor completely outclasses them.

Listen, whatever you say. I feel your own biased opinion is flawed. Unfortunately neither of us can prove the other right or wrong.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

I would certainly be ok with that, it makes it optional which I'm sure that is all anyone arguing against cap wants

yeah everyone I think agreed to that, except Vedis, but that is beside the points. I also think this is the best compromise that would satisfy everyone. From Casual to Hardcore, from people who wants a challenge to those who once in a while wouldn't mind to just go plow old content. While enforcing the challenge side so that there is actually an incentive to go the "harder" way. So a rank 50 who wants to farm gears for his lower class can still go the easy way but if he wants HQ gear he can too by capping himself.

I think it's the best of both world. (I hate making WoW reference but that would be similar to heroic dungeons, BUT would be superior because even heroics gets outdated when the max level is raised, capping ensure the challenge remains forever)

[Perrin_Aybarra]

Oh and Monkey, I answered to your "What if" but you might have missed it ^^ just want to see if that is what you meant.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

yeah everyone I think agreed to that, except Vedis, but that is beside the points. I also think this is the best compromise that would satisfy everyone. From Casual to Hardcore, from people who wants a challenge to those who once in a while wouldn't mind to just go plow old content. While enforcing the challenge side so that there is actually an incentive to go the "harder" way. So a rank 50 who wants to farm gears for his lower class can still go the easy way but if he wants HQ gear he can too by capping himself.

I think it's the best of both world. (I hate making WoW reference but that would be similar to heroic dungeons, BUT would be superior because even heroics gets outdated when the max level is raised, capping ensure the challenge remains forever)

I don't agree with it either. Anything that is going to exclude a group of players while unequally rewarding players who don't mind redundancy is not a fair system.

[Rentahamster]

No, it wouldn't. You would face the exact same problem for r50s. They will run it a few times to experience the challenge and then move on.

And having it uncapped solves this "problem"? As if steamrolling the dungeon would make them any less inclined to move on? You can say the exact same thing - "They will run it a few times, see how boring it is because there is no challenge, and then move on."

Challenging content has a direct influence on its replayability. I'm at a loss as to how you don't know that. It's a fundamental concept that applies to all games, ever.

A r50 is more advanced than a r30. How is anything you can accomplish at r30 anywhere near equal to what you can accomplish as a r50?

Your dad vs 8 year old girl analogy doesn't fit at all is not related to what we are talking about at all. That you think my argument is framed within the context of that analogy shows that you still don't understand what my point is.

I've tried in many different ways to explain how these types of concepts are integral to games from a game design and game balance perspective, and I'm not sure how else to put it more simply, or in a way that makes sense to you.

[Rentahamster]

Listen, whatever you say. I feel your own biased opinion is flawed. Unfortunately neither of us can prove the other right or wrong.

Are you seriously saying that no one would want to farm Kokoroon Armor if they were forced to do it as a rank 30?

Seriously?

It's the best DPS armor in the game. EVERYONE would do it.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Hmm it could be interesting if you mean something like that:

I will take a CoP exemple just so that people can relate to...

Lets say the promies, mae holla and I forget the other one's name, they are missions and are capped at level 30. Let's say that in FFXI they also had dungeons and one of them is designed for level 30. That dungeon is capped to 30 but if you complete the promies level 30, the dungeon is now uncapped for you.

If that is what you mean, than maybe, they can work some cool story arc around such design. But the mission itself (the promies) would need to stay capped.

That could be interesting, but would also complicate things. I would compromise on uncapped dungeons after the 1st completion of it (or maybe just uncapped regardless) Only if they plan to do capped boss battles with the story missions/quests. And also only if the dungeons are shallow tossable content that does not provide any lasting reward. (so goodbye fame/reputation/novelty items attainable in such content, devs would have to implement something else).

That is what I meant, and I could agree that having the boss fight capped would be an adequate compromise as well.

[Krausus]

Are you seriously saying that no one would want to farm Kokoroon Armor if they were forced to do it as a rank 30?

Seriously?

It's the best DPS armor in the game. EVERYONE would do it.

that's a pretty bold statement to make considering we do not know the STR to ATK ratio, but that is getting a bit off topic.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

And having it uncapped solves this "problem"? As if steamrolling the dungeon would make them any less inclined to move on? You can say the exact same thing - "They will run it a few times, see how boring it is because there is no challenge, and then move on."

Challenging content has a direct influence on its replayability. I'm at a loss as to how you don't know that. It's a fundamental concept that applies to all games, ever.

If the only reason I have to run a r30 dungeon is for the challenge, I am going to run it 1-3 times at most. After that it is routine and not a challenge and then by your own logic is no longer worth playing. If I can farm mid-level gear from it in 15-30 minutes then I will run it 10-15 times. Do you see how this is more 'replayable'? 10-15 times is greater than 1-3, do you not agree?

Your dad vs 8 year old girl analogy doesn't fit at all is not related to what we are talking about at all. That you think my argument is framed within the context of that analogy shows that you still don't understand what my point is.

I've tried in many different ways to explain how these types of concepts are integral to games from a game design and game balance perspective, and I'm not sure how else to put it more simply, or in a way that makes sense to you.

I'm sorry, it is COMPLETELY relevant. Your character's level is a mechanic that is meant to represent your experience and age within the game. The more you complete and experience, the higher your level gets. I am 29 and I have gotten 2 promotions and 3 raises in the 4 years I have been working at my current company. THAT is my accomplishment. My high school GPA is no longer counted as an achievement, so if I had to go back and retake a class to improve that GPA, I wouldn't tote it as some accomplishment worthy of my time.

Yet that is what you propose we should do. Any r50 should be glorified because he went BACK 20 levels and accomplished a r30 dungeon? I'm sorry, I don't get the connection.

Are you seriously saying that no one would want to farm Kokoroon Armor if they were forced to do it as a rank 30?

Seriously?

It's the best DPS armor in the game. EVERYONE would do it.

Did I say no one? No. But a hell of a lot LESS people would.

Not to mention that this is a whole other issue in itself as the first Dev team gave us NM gear that was barely any better than regular gear. Once the new team creates rank appropriate gear, the demand for level 30 gear is going to diminish greatly.