Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Yes we are. This is an MMO. Everyone is competing with each other in one form or another. This is one of the components of an MMO that drives player to player interaction and imbues virtual items (which would otherwise be worthless) with an actual perceived value.

You may PERCEIVE that we are in competition, but we are not. Competition implies that I am going to win something that you will be deprived of. Me running a r30 dungeon as a r50 doesn't deprive YOU of anything.

[Physic]

which is why I suggested it in my post, your answer is to implement a system to make the same content more repeatable, it doesn't matter, its still the same content its still going to be the same whether you do it at 25 or 35, I want more different content. I been doing the same content for almost 9 months now. I dont want to do the same two dungeons for 9 more, they should focus on adding more dungeons not scaling the ones that are already being added.

you mean making more high level dungeons? because you say low/midlevel dungeons are worthless.
problem is you make a top heavy game, and this is not even the final cap.
better to make all the challenging content have some type of value to all players,` with the high level dungeons offering more or simpler means of reward.
then every dungeon you add increases content for all players, you are encouraged to do the dunegeon up until you reach the next dungeon tier, but you have reasons to go back if you want to, and still get something out of it.

making only level 45+ dungeons is a bad idea imo.

[Rentahamster]

Again, this comes down into a disagreement in how the majority of players will behave, and what the incentives are to do certain behaviors.

r50 players will run it 3 times to experience the challenge and then move on.

If the item rewards are good enough, the rank 50 players will want to run it more often to get those items (For example, a rank 30 uber sword to use for their lower rank classes). You can see this same type of behavior in the open-world rank 30 NMs. Rank 50 players killed them constantly so they could get the item drops.

Additionally, they will want to run the rank 30 dungeon on their lower rank classes as well to get SP.

If the dungeon were UNCAPPED, however, r50s would run it 10-15 times to actually farm the mediocre gear, there by making an uncapped dungeon more 'replayable' than capping it.

The gear is not mediocre. It is some of the best gear you can have at rank 30, therefore making it valuable when compared to other rank 30 gear. Gear with such a high value needs to be earned via a challenge of adequate merit.

When the best rank 30 gear is so easily farmable by rank 50s, there is no incentive for crafters to craft normal rank 30 gear, and the market for rank 30 gear is diminished.

[Krausus]

you mean making more high level dungeons? because you say low/midlevel dungeons are worthless.
problem is you make a top heavy game, and this is not even the final cap.
better to make all the challenging content have some type of value to all players,` with the high level dungeons offering more or simpler means of reward.
then every dungeon you add increases content for all players, you are encouraged to do the dunegeon up until you reach the next dungeon tier, but you have reasons to go back if you want to, and still get something out of it.

making only level 45+ dungeons is a bad idea imo.

if you would actually read my posts you would see that I suggested adding in rank 35, 40, and 45+ dungeons along with large scale raids, a chocobo system, airships, player ran companies, housing, player built cities.

On top of that I also said if they want to work on a cap system on the side without taking away development time from adding more content then that is fine as long as it is optional and not forceful.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Again, this comes down into a disagreement in how the majority of players will behave, and what the incentives are to do certain behaviors.


If the item rewards are good enough, the rank 50 players will want to run it more often to get those items (For example, a rank 30 uber sword to use for their lower rank classes). You can see this same type of behavior in the open-world rank 30 NMs. Rank 50 players killed them constantly so they could get the item drops.

Additionally, they will want to run the rank 30 dungeon on their lower rank classes as well to get SP.



The gear is not mediocre. It is some of the best gear you can have at rank 30, therefore making it valuable when compared to other rank 30 gear. Gear with such a high value needs to be earned via a challenge of adequate merit.

When the best rank 30 gear is so easily farmable by rank 50s, there is no incentive for crafters to craft normal rank 30 gear, and the market for rank 30 gear is diminished.

First of all, all of your arguments are fueled by speculation. Second of all, the BEST r30 gear is going to mediocre to a r50 player, period. If they want gear for a rank 30 class they will either outright buy it or farm it. Your example of the open world NMs proves this point. How many r50s would still fight the mid-level NMs if they had to do it as a r30? What makes you think that a r50 is going to repeatedly farm a r50 dungeon for everything they want, just to be forced to do it again for LOWER level gear for a lower level job?

[Rentahamster]

Nobody has said anything about my newest recommendation for a compromise:

WHAT IF:

What if it was a 'limited' cap? By that I mean, they could CAP the dungeon until quests X, Y, and Z have been accomplished. Successful completion of these quests would allow you to run the dungeon UNCAPPED. That would preserve both the challenge and the re-playability of the dungeon for both sides.

The optional cap proposed by Perrin would be just fine, IMO.

capped dungeon run - be eligible for good item drops

uncapped dungeon run - not be eligible for good item drops

Would be perfectly fine and solve nearly all the problems.

You may PERCEIVE that we are in competition, but we are not. Competition implies that I am going to win something that you will be deprived of. Me running a r30 dungeon as a r50 doesn't deprive YOU of anything.

I perceive we are in competition because we are. It is human nature to measure one's own success against another's. In real life we want to be better than the next guy, hav more money, have a bigger house, nicer car, better job, etc. In an MMO, it's the same way. We play the game in order to increase our own virtual standing. In a single player game, it only has merit to each individual player, and therefore your argument about your actions not affecting me would be valid.

But this is not a single player game. The relative and perceived value of our items is measured in not only our self-identified personal worth, but also by how much better/worse they are compared to everyone else's items. Having good items means you put in a lot of effort to get them.

You would say, "but that's what the rank 50 stuff is for!", and yes, that is what it is for, I know that. However, the fundamental flaw that many MMOs have nowadays is that they are only balanced for end-game and everything up until then is meaningless.

What if it wasn't?

What if you could get the same feeling of status and e-peen at rank 30 as you can at rank 50?

Applying challenge in the right areas,
with an appropriate degree of difficulty,
strictly balanced in order to promote fun and not discouragement,

Is one of the many keys to the success of an MMO.

I want FF14 to be that MMO that gets right what other MMOs get wrong.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

Nobody has said anything about my newest recommendation for a compromise:

WHAT IF:

What if it was a 'limited' cap? By that I mean, they could CAP the dungeon until quests X, Y, and Z have been accomplished. Successful completion of these quests would allow you to run the dungeon UNCAPPED. That would preserve both the challenge and the re-playability of the dungeon for both sides.

Hmm it could be interesting if you mean something like that:

I will take a CoP exemple just so that people can relate to...

Lets say the promies, mae holla and I forget the other one's name, they are missions and are capped at level 30. Let's say that in FFXI they also had dungeons and one of them is designed for level 30. That dungeon is capped to 30 but if you complete the promies level 30, the dungeon is now uncapped for you.

If that is what you mean, than maybe, they can work some cool story arc around such design. But the mission itself (the promies) would need to stay capped.

That could be interesting, but would also complicate things. I would compromise on uncapped dungeons after the 1st completion of it (or maybe just uncapped regardless) Only if they plan to do capped boss battles with the story missions/quests. And also only if the dungeons are shallow tossable content that does not provide any lasting reward. (so goodbye fame/reputation/novelty items attainable in such content, devs would have to implement something else).

[Rentahamster]

Your example of the open world NMs proves this point. How many r50s would still fight the mid-level NMs if they had to do it as a r30?

Everyone would, if they don't want their end-game gear build to be gimp, and if they want to equip their lower classes with the best gear.

Seer's Cowl
Bilaud
Veneer Bracers
Kokoroon Armor
Elmo
Penance
Eternal Shade
Nightawk Visor


ALL of these items are end-game, and all of them are the best items for mid-rank.

No one wants to buy haubergeons anymore because kokoroon armor completely outclasses them.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

The optional cap proposed by Perrin would be just fine, IMO.

capped dungeon run - be eligible for good item drops

uncapped dungeon run - not be eligible for good item drops

Would be perfectly fine and solve nearly all the problems.

I would just precise that uncapped run would entitle to normal rewards and capped runs would allow for HQ version of the rewards. With greater risks comes greater rewards. That would make it worhwhile while not penalyzing people who just want to go through content.

[Krausus]

I would just precise that uncapped run would entitle to normal rewards and capped runs would allow for HQ version of the rewards. With greater risks comes greater rewards. That would make it worhwhile while not penalyzing people who just want to go through content.

I would certainly be ok with that, it makes it optional which I'm sure that is all anyone arguing against cap wants