Hardcore MMORPG's would be a massive failure if it was released in today's MMORPG era

[Gramul]

not sure what the point of this is, there are areas like that in FFXIV.

Yeah. And I'm personally asking for more things like it. Little alcoves hidden away where you don't have to worry about trash mobs wiggling around.

there are lots of people who once they spent the money, they feel obliged to spend time. it's why most people don't walk out of crappy movies.

That's...really not a healthy mindset to take. Many theaters will give you a refund if you ask after leaving early. Probably not 10-20 minutes early, but still, you don't have to suffer through something you don't like. Especially if it's supposed to entertain you.

[Jynx]

And that is what makes the recent resurgence of sandbox mmos so interesting. Will we go back to the old days or will something new come from it?

Who the hell knows. But it is different and it is exciting.

It definatly will be interesting to see what comes of the more "Open" games, I hear wildstar is nice but seems to lack focused direction I hope it does well for itself. I'm sticking with XIV as I'm awefully interested to see where the game moves forward in years to come I think the first big expansion will say alot for the future of the game for the player base. I'm sure alot of people are still holding out hope that the patches will always have something they desire as the game is still relativly unformed and subject to alot of change.

[Velhart]

We have instant teleporting, instant airship travel, sprinting, and a variety of mounts. I don't think that has to be a problem any more than it is.
Anyone remember that quiet meadow in the south end of Konschtat highlands? Inbetween the craigs to get to Noth Gustaburg, there was this little meadow. It didn't serve much purpuse other than to be a small quiet spot. It was things like this that helped keep the game feel like a world.

Problem with that is because it was a task to just get to an area or a chore to get past mobs with sneak/invis in some areas, it was hard to appreciate a lot of the beauty that FFXI did have. Most FFXI players were gathered up in Jeuno or Whitegate until they had a reason to go outside of it. With how FFXIV is set up (can debate sense of danger in another thread), but its much easier to appreciate the scenery when there isn't so much holding you back. To each their own.

As an aside, I find it funny when people say "feels like a second job". My job is to test videogames. That's what I get paid to do.
Do you know what the difference between work and play is besides payment? How much you feel obliged.

That really doesn't have anything to do with this. Regardless if you are a game tester or not, the actual product to a consumer shouldn't feel like a second job.

[Jynx]

the actual product to a consumer shouldn't feel like a second job.

The problem is that what may seem like "Work" to you may be very enjoyable to others.

[Khavir]

The problem is that what may seem like "Work" to you may be very enjoyable to others.

That's fair but why is what you prefer more valued than what I prefer then? If two people say it feels like work and one person enjoys it that's totally fair for them to have an opinion but if they're out-voted why are the people that don't enjoy it suddenly less valued?

[Haibel]

So, you basically just said "It would take a long time to do things so most people would quit". What evidence do you have to back that up? How do you know that so called hardcore players are all but gone? We where all young teenagers once with more free time. It stands to reason that there's more out there willing to play in a world that demands engagement and commitment. Certainly not as much as the casual masses that will eat anything with the slightest hint of a skinner box design, but still strong, and more importantly, committed. I believe this game can support both kinds of content, and even stuff in the middle without having to rely on cheap tricks like lockout timers.

Also, Horizontal progression does not necessarily equate to timesinks. It's more about having more options in what to do.

Too be fair, All games are pretty skinner boxes. Horizontal progression may not necessarily equate to time sinks, but they typically do.
I do however agree that there can be a balance between the two. I will say that after 8 years of being hardcore in to XI; after my departure
from that game, I have no desire to be that hardcore into a game ever again.

I play XIV everyday. If I'm not in the mood, I don't play and can be away from the game a few days with nothing to worry about. I avoid static groups for
this reason. I have gone in to coil once this whole time and beat turn one first try. Mainly because I'm ilvl 88 tank this content isn't that much of a challenge
as it should be if I did it when it came out. I'll probably play coil more when it does move to DF, not because I don't want the challenge that is turn 5 but
because I don't want to be tied down to a static group.

[Gramul]

That really doesn't have anything to do with this.

That's why it's called "an aside".

Regardless if you are a game tester or not, the actual product to a consumer shouldn't feel like a second job.

The point being "work" is entirely a matter of perspective. Some people actually like to spend a lot of time on things.

Too be fair, All games are pretty skinner boxes.

You're entirely right. I was more meaning games that hide it less and less. You know all those app games for phones these days. Push button, receive reward. Pay us money so you don't have to wait to push the button again.

I wonder if I could actually sell a game that literally just gives you a colorful star every time you press a button, but it takes longer and longer to recharge so you you can pay me 5 cents to get a free button push.

[Khavir]

The point being "work" is entirely a matter of perspective. Some people actually like to spend a lot of time on things.

True, however in this case they're in the minority and yet want the majority to do thing's that they don't enjoy instead of finding a different outlet that better matches their taste.

[Skyhound]

That's fair but why is what you prefer more valued than what I prefer then? If two people say it feels like work and one person enjoys it that's totally fair for them to have an opinion but if they're out-voted why are the people that don't enjoy it suddenly less valued?

Probably because it's not the people who enjoy it that are being outvoted. The forums are actually a very small percentage of the player base. Even if the whole front page of Gen. Discussion is full of negativity, it will literally be the vocal minority.

[Jynx]

why are the people that don't enjoy it suddenly less valued?

Who said they were? I'm stating my opinion here not anyone elses, the "Other people" are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves you know.