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  1. #11
    Player
    Kajidourden's Avatar
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    Nov 2013
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    87
    Character
    Miran Kiran
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Archer Lv 50
    There are other encounters with more interesting mechanics. Granted nothing as clever and fun as those...but there are some. For instance there is the copperbell mine hard mode encounters, and of course coil as a few examples. I think if they implemented things such as that people would cry about it...I mean hell, look how much people cry about copperbell mines HM and Pharos sirius....which really are not bad if your group isn't terrible
    (1)
    Last edited by Kajidourden; 02-25-2014 at 07:32 AM.

  2. #12
    Player
    Simaril's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    405
    Character
    Simaril Ratbane
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Carpenter Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sibyll View Post
    SE has managed to gate content almost entirely on "do not stand in fire" mechanics which is rather sad when you think about it. Perhaps it's so they can confidently throw more complex mechanics at the players knowing that the player base has mastered the art of positioning.
    This is exactly what I'm talking about. I find it sad for a couple of reasons.

    -"do not stand in the fire" mechanics amke the game very one dimensional
    -I am not great at positioning, and I would rather see a game that does NOT require mastering that art... When should dancing be an important component of RPGs??? I'd be happy to see some enounters where you don't have to move at all.
    -I was hoping Final Fantasy would come up with something new, interesting, fun, and BETTER.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sibyll View Post
    While there are a lot of interesting mechanics you can throw, the issue with the type of design you are describing is there is little replay value. Once people know that you have to kill the adds in a specific order or that using fire spells heals the boss, then the encounter becomes trivialized even though it might be very rewarding to figure it out on your own for the first time.
    Replay value is a challange, but not impossible to overcome. Could gearcheck bosses hp/defense/dmg reflect raid members ilvl? Could encounters include more randomness... like sometimes having a caster add you have to burn, but other times having a tank add you're better off ignoring or CCing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sibyll View Post
    Nearly every primal fight has a DPS check component. The encounter designs stress mastery of class and game mechanics more so than meeting arbitrary gear milestones, and I don't believe this is a bad thing. I regularly see very well geared DPS that can't make simple DPS checks because they understand class mechanics, tanks that melt because they don't know how to use cooldowns and players with relics and full myth tome gear that can't avoid AoEs on Titan HM.
    While there are gearchecks, there are few barriers preventing you from getting way better gear than you need (crafted and tomes allow you to bypass gear checks). You might need ilv 70 for titan HM, but you can get ilv 70 crafted gear before you even hit 50, so it's easy to significantly out gear everything through Titan HM - IMO each tier of gear should be gated by gear checks. This probably wasn't true for players who got to endgame quickly, but it is for the more casual players who would actually benefit from some gating and the feeling of tiers.


    I had a full set of ilv70 crafted gear before I went to a lv 50 instance... so I trivialized any gearcheck in:

    Castrum Meridanum
    Praetorium
    Ifrit HM
    Wanderer's Palace
    Amdapor Keep
    Garuda HM
    Copperbell HM
    Haukke HM
    Pharos Sirius
    King Mog was quite easy in ilv 70
    Titan... ok now you need 3,200 hps - so ilv 70 + a few materia
    Ultima
    Crystal Tower

    Maybe part of my issue isn't the instances, but rather the availabilty of gear? Honestly, I think the "dance check" is too harsh, while there are essentially no other "checks."
    (3)
    Last edited by Simaril; 02-25-2014 at 10:22 PM.

  3. #13
    Player
    givemeraptors's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    481
    Character
    Felendis Vreer
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 60
    I think CT has cool mechanics. Most of the time you don't have to really dodge things, it's more about figuring out the puzzle and killing adds. But of course, like in any MMO, once people understand how the puzzle works and they've done it 30+ times it just boils down to it's most simplistic parts which comes out to: pew pew, dodge, pew pew.
    (1)

  4. #14
    Player
    Trashy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    19
    Character
    Taylor Swiftcast
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Simaril View Post
    I wouldn't mind a pure tank and spank gear check once in a while that truly tells you "You can't do this because you don't have the gear!"
    Go ahead and try to join a Party Finder group for Coil Turn 4 or EX Primals. It's exactly what you're requesting here. Hell, we didn't get a chance to do T4 last week because our other healer was out, and our replacement from the FC didn't have the gear to do it. Turn 4 requires extremely little dodging. For the most part, I stand still, with a few adjustments in position during phase shifts.

    Cecil becoming a paladin had to STOP attacking the mirror image of himself... the three sisters required a kill order and reflect was super helpful... the dungeon where you couldn't use anything metal... idk... they kept it interesting, without dancing at their disposal!
    Yeah it's not like FFXIV has fights where you have to stop DPSing certain targets (Caduceus with 2 feeds or after split, Garuda EX Spiny), or a fight with a kill order (Brayflox Inferno Drake, Cutter's Cry Myrmidon Princess, Garuda EX, Coil Turn 4). Or a fight where certain skills are super helpful (silence in Turn 1, Turn 2, and Pharos Sirius.)

    Or other interesting non-dodging mechanics, like feeds in turn 1, conflag/fireballs, death sentence and hatch in Turn 5, Allagan Rot in turn 2, Magic Reflect/Physical Stone skin in Turn 4, Sisters phase in Garuda EX, and bubble bursting in Ultima HM.
    (6)

  5. #15
    Player
    CompSci88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    135
    Character
    Nep Nep
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Simaril View Post
    I'd be happy to see some enounters where you don't have to move at all.
    Yeah, because tank and spank for 10+min is really fun.
    (3)

  6. #16
    Player
    Sibyll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    438
    Character
    Sibyll Belmont
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Simaril View Post
    -I am not great at positioning, and I would rather see a game that does NOT require mastering that art... When should dancing be an important component of RPGs??? I'd be happy to see some enounters where you don't have to move at all.
    Proper positioning and avoiding AoEs is not exactly something new to MMOs. I fail to see how standing still DPSing/healing/tanking could possibly be interesting.

    Also I'd like to clarify that when I said it was sad that SE has gated content with "do not stand in fire" mechanics, I meant it's sad that people are that bad that they are unable to overcome such a simple mechanic.

    Having semi-random boss encounters could be interesting, but clearly a lot of people are still struggling with scripted boss fight mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trashy View Post
    Or other interesting non-dodging mechanics, like feeds in turn 1, conflag/fireballs, death sentence and hatch in Turn 5, Allagan Rot in turn 2, Magic Reflect/Physical Stone skin in Turn 4, Sisters phase in Garuda EX, and bubble bursting in Ultima HM.
    Turn 2 had some very interesting mechanics, and then people decided to turn it into a tank and spank gear check. Such fun.
    (1)
    Last edited by Sibyll; 02-26-2014 at 01:59 AM.

  7. #17
    Player
    Simaril's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    405
    Character
    Simaril Ratbane
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Carpenter Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Trashy View Post
    Go ahead and try to join a Party Finder group for Coil Turn 4 or EX Primals. It's exactly what you're requesting here.
    So the first 12 or so instances at level 50 (and all the one's prior to 50) should have trivial or no gear checks???


    Quote Originally Posted by Trashy View Post
    Yeah it's not like FFXIV has fights where you have to stop DPSing certain targets (Caduceus with 2 feeds or after split, Garuda EX Spiny), or a fight with a kill order (Brayflox Inferno Drake, Cutter's Cry Myrmidon Princess, Garuda EX, Coil Turn 4). Or a fight where certain skills are super helpful (silence in Turn 1, Turn 2, and Pharos Sirius.)

    Or other interesting non-dodging mechanics, like feeds in turn 1, conflag/fireballs, death sentence and hatch in Turn 5, Allagan Rot in turn 2, Magic Reflect/Physical Stone skin in Turn 4, Sisters phase in Garuda EX, and bubble bursting in Ultima HM.
    I'm not saying FFXIV doesn't have those things. I AM saying that it doesn't have enough of them... and it has TOO MUCH dancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sibyll View Post
    Proper positioning and avoiding AoEs is not exactly something new to MMOs. I fail to see how standing still DPSing/healing/tanking could possibly be interesting.

    Having semi-random boss encounters could be interesting, but clearly a lot of people are still struggling with scripted boss fight mechanics.
    Before WoW, MMO raiding I experienced did not have nearly the level of movement required in the last 7 or 8 years. Positioning was important, strategy was important, timing was important... movement not nearly as much as it has become in the last several years. In EQ, there were a lot of encounters where I literally didn't even consider moving at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sibyll View Post
    Also I'd like to clarify that when I said it was sad that SE has gated content with "do not stand in fire" mechanics, I meant it's sad that people are that bad that they are unable to overcome such a simple mechanic.
    I understand and appreciate what you mean. It makes me sad for a different reason. I wish MMOs didn't feel the need to use dancing as their primary difficulty factor as it seems to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by CompSci88 View Post
    Yeah, because tank and spank for 10+min is really fun.
    I'm not saying every encounter should be entirely tank and spank... but... yes a true tank and spank gear check would be different and more enjoyable than another dance.






    Also... this (from wikipedia):

    A square dance is a dance for four couples (eight dancers) arranged in a square, with one couple on each side, facing the middle of the square {sounds like the begining of a boss strategy doesn't it?}. In most American forms of square dance, the dancers are prompted or cued through a sequence of steps (square dance choreography) by a caller to the beat (and, in some traditions, the phrasing) of music. The caller may be one of the dancers or musicians, but nowadays is more likely to be on stage, giving full attention to directing the dancers.

    Would you have purchased a square dance MMO? Final Square Dance Fantasy anyone? Is that what we're actually playing?
    (2)
    Last edited by Simaril; 02-26-2014 at 02:13 AM.

  8. #18
    Player
    Simaril's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    405
    Character
    Simaril Ratbane
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Carpenter Lv 50
    Vox strategy from EQ (http://eqpathfinders.guildportal.com...icID=7708076):
    This is a copy and paste of the Vox raid guide which lived at the Crimson Talons web site. I had to get if from the Wayback machine.

    Guide to Raiding Lady Vox**
    Last updated 19 December 2001
    RAIDING LADY VOX - Written by Brewall Rainsinger // Bard // Cazic-Thule
    Greetings all. I've written this guide to explain how a textbook Vox raid is done. This is the compilation of my observations on both good & bad raids and numerous "guides" that I have found that were often lacking. It also includes my insights from the 10+ successful Vox raids I have hosted. For many players, dragon hunts are their first foray into large scale raids and if you have never done one before, this guide will explain a lot of what is going on, and what you need to do. Most of all, be patient. Pulling off a large raid can take a bit of time, especially if the raid is short of certain classes.

    WHAT YOU NEED
    1. You should be between levels 45 and 52. Clerics as low as 39 (with complete heal) are also useful, but must remember to stay far away from Vox.
    2. An unbuffed Magic Resistance of 50 and a Cold Resistance of 100. The higher the better.
    3. Bring two peridots: one for cleric and one for enchanter. These will be used for beneficial spells.
    4. Check with raid leader on how loot will be distributed.

    HOW TO GET THERE
    1. Closest Druid portal: Surefall Glades
    2. Closest Wizard portal: SE corner of West Karana
    3. Timorous Deep fire pot room (-12100, 4200). The pot in the SE corner - on the south wall - will transport you onto the docks in Halas. If you attempt this route, just be careful of dragon that occasionally appears near the pot room. This can be a very quick way to get to Halas if you are in near Timorous and have access to SoW and levitate.

    IMPORTANT THINGS TO REMEMBER
    1. Vox is a level 55 Dragon with Cleric spells, and will buff herself constantly.
    2. Vox's most deadly weapon is her AE cold breath and AE fear spell. Wear as much MR/CR gear as possible; sacrifice all other statistics (yes, even AC) to get these as high as possible. If you are level 52, CR gear is more important that MR gear, because you will resist most of her fears if you have a bard in your group.
    3. Check your resist gear. If you don't have much, consider acquiring: 2xPlatinum Peridot Ring (AC4 CR10), Cloak of the Icebear (AC8 HP10 CR20), Rune Boned Fork (MR10 CR10 FR10), Crown of the Froglok King (AC12 CR20 FR20), Velium Round Shield (AC15 CR10), and Gnomish Environmental Suit (AC9 FR10 CR10 PR10). There are a wealth of other items available, especially with the addition of SoV
    4. Many of the mobs in Permafrost have high cold resist - including Vox, use fire based spells where possible for minimum resists.
    5. In order to cast any spell on Vox - YOU MUST BE WITHIN HER MELEE RANGE.

    THINGS TO DO BEFORE RAID
    Single biggest delay to raiding Vox: people not arriving on time. If there were 30+ of the right people ready to raid, the whole thing could be over in an hour or two. Permafrost is in a remote location, so I recommend doing the following, the day before the raid.
    1. If you are a melee, get transport, and get a bind in Halas. This is especially important for pullers.
    2. If you are a caster, bind just inside Permafrost or just outside in Everfrost.
    3. Set up hotkeys for Disciplines if you have them.
    4. If you have programmed any of your hotkeys to include non-critical comments get rid of them to cut down on spam & the associated lag (e.g. "/say I am assisting %T"). Information that is critical to battle (e.g. Heal, Lay-on-Hands, Tash, Slow) are fine.
    5. Get your MR/CR gear ready in backpacks so that it is ready to equip quickly.
    6. Check with friends if they would like to attend raid. Lining up some backups can make the difference in going ahead versus rescheduling a raid.
    7. Kill Ice Giants. 3 are located outside Permafrost and others are inside the zone. All yield decent experience and loot even in the 50s.
    8. Get CR bracers. The Ice Goblin King has "Symbols of Loyalty to Vox" bracers AC7 CR7. They aren't lore, so opportunists often stock up on them and sell to others before the fight.
    9. Get CR leggings. Elite Goblin Guards occasionally have AC8 CR5 legs.
    10. If you don't have one, get a weight reduction backpack off Goblin Archeologist.
    11. Stay in the area and build factions. Kill Black Burrow gnolls for druid & Qeynos factions. Collect teeth, and turn in 4 at a time to female warrior near PvP area in Halas for barbarian factions.
    12. Camp in Qeynos Hills for the Fishbone Earring or the Glowing Black Stone.

    STAGING PHASE
    1. When you are in Everfrost or Permafrost, report in to the raid leader.
    2. The raid leader may tell you if the raid is short of certain classes. Check with friends if asked.
    3. Turn off anonymous when you show up.
    4. Assemble near Goblin King for temporary groups ("1" on map below).
    5. The raid leader, pullers, and group Leaders will use Shout channel. All other communication should be on the OOC channel.
    6. It may take a while for the raid leader to work out final groups and the attack plan, especially if the raid is short of people in critical areas (clerics, enchanters, bards, and nukers).[
    KILLING VOX'S GUARDS
    PHASE1. Once enough people are present, final groups will be assigned.
    2. Unless you are being directed to pull, stay in the King Area behind the flag (blue flag shown on map above to left of "1"). Stay back, if you are close to the giant door, you could pick up Vox agro while guards are being pulled. If so, Vox could summon and kill you.
    3. The main and secondary assists will be named. Create a hotkey for each.
    4. The raid leader and backup leader will be named. Take instructions from either leader.
    5. The pullers will begin pulling the guards from Vox's chamber to the groups. See map above for placement and pathing of the Tentacles (T), Magnus's (M), Ice Giant Priest (P), and Priest of Nagafen (PoN). This phase is often tricky and the puller may die from Vox agros. All these mobs are on an approximate 4 hour timer. When the last guard is killed, the raid leader will likely name final groups.
    6. Form into final groups. Write down all members on paper for future reference (with so many people, it may be difficult to target someone with a mouse, so just use the "/target [name]" command). Never know if your group leader will go LD and someone else needs to step in. Also, when last person has joined, everyone should say their class and level.
    7. The raid leader will announce "Prepare to move".
    8. The raid leader will announce "Move". All groups will move to the waiting area marked "2" near the lair. If you have never been to the buff spot, DO NOT RUN AHEAD. There are invisible pit traps that will result in a quick death in the pits below. The one due East from "2" on the map above is particularly bad with 6 mobs in the pits below.
    9. Nuking casters can bind on the ramp (near "4"), so that in death, can mem critical spells and jump back into the fight. In the past, players sometimes left a couple coins on the ground to prevent empty corpses from vanishing if dying again. An alternate approach was to have everyone in group create a "/split 0 0 0 6" key, which can be used prior to someone coming back into the fight.
    10. Recommend that you go through entire attack plan and buffing information at this point. The two key things to stress are: (1) NEVER PUSH VOX ON A WALL and (2) IF YOU FALL INTO PIT, STAY THERE AND DIE.

    BUFFING PHASE
    1. A list of casters will be named #1-14 and will correspond to the buff number.
    2. Go to your graphic and filter options and turn everything off or to minimum (spell effects, level of detail, damage shield messages, etc).
    3. All non-buffers will be stripped of all buffs.
    4. Once stripped, all buffers & all bards will disband from the groups. Temporary buffer groups will be formed. Generally done by having 2 buff stations. Station #1 at area marked "3", and station #2 at area marked "4". Clarity should be kept on all buffers and teamed with bards. If there are 2 or more necros, keep chloro and bard singing mana/heal so that the necros can pump mana. Groups with necros and magicians should be done last to maximize mana feeding time.
    5. The raid leader will call out a group to get buffed. This group should move to the buff groups and get all of the buffs listed in the next step. Give a peridot to the cleric and the enchanter when ready for those buffs.
    6. The buffs should be done in mana/time order to maximize buff time.
    #01 caster - 1 junk buff (e.g. resist fire)
    #02 caster - 1 junk buff (e.g. resist poison)
    #03 caster - 1 junk buff (e.g. resist disease)
    #04 caster - 1 junk buff (e.g. ultravision) - rangers may want to do "call of sky" for stun proc.
    #05 shaman - talisman of altuna - HP238 (250mana - 72min)
    #06 shaman - stamina - STA37 (~100HP) (100 - 63min)
    #07 cleric - shield of words - AC32 (300 - 72min)
    #08 cleric - heroism - AC20 HP400 (140mana - 72min)
    #09 cleric - symbol of naltron - HP525 Peridot (315mana - 54min)
    #10 enchanter - rune IV / V - DMG620/700 Peridot (350mana - 110min)
    #11 enchanter - group resist magic - MR55 (200mana - 36min)
    #12 enchanter - haste / clarity - (185mana - 16min/75mana - 27min)
    #13 druid - circle of summer - group CR45 (150mana - 36min)
    #14 druid - chloro (200mana - 15min)
    #15 open - for bard resist song
    7. Note: depending on classes attending, necros can also do resist cold and druids could do resist magic.
    8. Once buffed, the group should disband, OOC done, and camp out. I suggest having groups 1/2 camp at "4", 3/4/enc group camp at "3", and all other groups at "2".
    9. When back at the server selection screen, go to the chat area, and go to the server chat (Cazic-Thule in my case). Wait here until someone gets on and says everyone should log back.
    10. Once everyone has been buffed, the bards will form groups and go through the buff stations. They will stay with each buffer until they are back to FM.
    11. When the bards are finished, the buffers at the station will form groups and self-buff. Typically, when at third cleric buff, the raid leader goes back to chat to give any last minute instructions.
    11. Someone will camp and tell the chat room that the attack will start momentarily. Give group leaders 30 seconds head start.
    12. When you log back in - turn on WALK. Vox will cast fear, and it is best to be walk mode. If you have run mode on and Vox fears you, you may wind up in the pits. Note: VI changed this code, when feared you will always move at a set speed, therefore, it no longer does any good to turn on walk.
    13. Reform final groups, and OOC ready.
    14. Any class that has a pet should summon one.
    15. If Vox agros or expels people during the buffing phase, someone has Vox agro. The easiest way to clear this is to have everyone camp and come back.

    ASSAULTING VOX
    1. Only the raid leader and/or backup leader will shout attack instructions. Smooth raids are ones where everyone knows what to do and follows instructions.
    2. [RL: Group 1/2 to rock]. Groups 1 and 2 move up to the rock entering her chamber.
    3. [RL: Prepare for attack on the count of 3]. Bards should start to play Elemental Rhythms with a drum (which should add approximately 71MR, 71CR, and 71FR).
    4. [RL: Group 1/2 attack]. The main tank groups (1-2) will rush Vox, activate disciplines (if you have them), surround her on all sides, and attack. Bards will not attack with hand-to-hand (insignificant melee damage and Vox ripostes can cause significant damage). The safest place for a bard to fight will be directly below Vox's stomach near her hind legs. If lag is minimal and it is possible, twist Guardian Rhythms ( 71MR and 10AC), or other buffs.
    5. If Vox is in the narrow area leading to the rock door, it is critical that the first tank groups push her into the center of the room. If she is in that area, it is the same as if she was stuck on a wall and will CH repeatedly.
    6. Healers for the tank groups will remain near the rock entrance at "5".
    7. [RL: Group 3/4 attack. Enc group enter] Once she is in center of room and surrounded on all sides. The other tank groups can enter (groups 3/4) along with the enchanters & shaman and attack. Other groups can move to the rock entrance and wait.
    8. If for any reason, you get feared and find yourself in the pits, stay there and die. Do not bring more mobs to the fight.
    9. A major key to killing Vox is to not push her onto a wall. IF VOX GETS PUSHED ONTO A WALL SHE WILL STAND THERE, HEAL HERSELF, AND SUMMON PEOPLE. Those that are between Vox and the nearest wall should not taunt. If you are near the wall and are the current agro, move away from the wall.
    EARLY INTO FIGHT
    10. [RL: Enchanters dispell now]. Every enchanter should run to Vox and dispel two times to remove all her buffs (remember to stand within melee range). If short on enc, other classes can dispell. Vox has the old-world max of 32k hitpoints, and the dispels should remove her cleric buffs and will effectively reduce her hitpoints. Each enchanter should OOC "Dispelled" once two successful dispells are complete. Need a minimum of 3 dispellers.
    11. Once finished dispelling, enchanters should immediately begin mana sieving her, and continue to sieve until Vox is dead. If short on enchanters (1-2), suggest having any necros feed mana. Necros can also DoT and send in pet.
    12. [RL: Debuf / Slow now]. Once all dispells are done, the debufs should come. Shamans should immediately begin to attempt to slow/debuf Vox and should OOC successes ("Slowed", "Malosied", etc). If any 53+ characters are present on the raid, they can attempt to attack/debuf/slow at this time. Bards may consider adding a debuf to twist (1 does fire resist, 1 does magic resist).
    13. Necros should avoid spells that turn Vox into a skeleton. This makes it very difficult to find the mob with so many people.
    14. Healers should remain near the rock until needed. If there is only a single person in the group taking damage, they should move back to the rock and get a heal. This allows the healers to stay out of Vox's breath range. If a number of people have taken damage, the healer should come to the group. The safest place for a healer to stand is behind Vox outside breath range.
    15. Healers should pay particularly close attention to the bard in their group. Bard resistances are preventing an enormous amount of damage, and bards have the fewest HP of all melee/hybrids. Bards are the only class that will not come back to the rock for healing if they are the only one taking damage. Bards are keeping groups alive, keep them alive.
    16. Healers/Paladins should call out in OOC any LoH or CH.AT 60% HEALTH:
    18. [RL: Pets attack now]. Pets are called in to attack.
    19. [RL: Tash now]. 1 enchanter should Tash Vox and should OOC "Tashed" if successful. If Vox agros and stays agroed on the enchanter, they should not be healed (hate will be transferred to healer and healer will die). Heal the enchanter if they live. If agroed, the enchanter can use this opportunity to pull Vox into the center of the room. The risk to enc tashing is rather low by the time Vox has reached the 60 percent mark.
    20. [RL: Stun, bash, slam]. Everyone begins chain-stunning, bashing, and slamming Vox. Although, stuns will not actually stun her, it will interrupt her from casting heal spells. Continue to stun her until she is dead. Vox is a cleric AI and will attempt to Complete Heal herself. If she does get one off, it is not the end of the world, it will heal approximately 5k of hitpoints.
    AT 50% HEALTH
    21.[ RL: Nuke now]. Nukes and casters will be called in. Remember to get within melee range or your spell will not land. Melee classes that cannot cast stun should nuke as well. Nuke until Vox is dead.
    22. [RL: Reserves Attack now]. Any melee groups held in reserve should attack
    23. If a caster dies, memorize critical spells and rejoin the fight. All rezzes will be done when Vox goes down.
    24. If a bard is nearly dead and cannot be healed, they can move to center of room and suicide with Denons Desperate Dirge (Vox targeted) for 300+ damage.
    AT 20% HEALTH
    25. [RL: Wizards Nuke now]. Wizards are called in at 20% health for nuking.
    26. Continue to mana sieve, interrupt, and nuke Vox until dead.
    VOX DEATH
    1. Vox's corpse should not decay for 30 minutes until after she dies.
    2. The group leader of the killing group should inspect the body and tell the raid leader which items are present. Some raids will have a trusted member lock the corpse until the raid leader can get to the corpse.
    3. No one else should inspect the body. The raid leader will loot and distribute items.
    4. All resurrections will be performed at this time. Temporary groups may be assigned with clerics & bards to minimize time. Any bodies from pits will be recovered at this time as well.
    THE LOOT
    Ah, dragon loot. What caster wouldn't want a +15wis/+15int item? What tank doesn't want haste? Who wouldn't want a 100% weight reduction 10-slot bag that holds XL items? Or listen to cheers as a paladin or a bard gets a critical item in their epic quest? A staff that allows anyone to resurrect - a fantastic raid item.
    1. Book of Scale - paladin fiery avenger
    2. Crystalline Spear - PRC 13/30 // WAR RNG BRD ROG // ALL // 6.8WT
    3. Dragon Bone Bracelet - AC4 // STR+7 AGI+7 // WAR PAL RNG SHD MNK BRD ROG // ALL // 0.1WT
    4. Kayruuls Mystic Pouch - 10 SLOT 100% WEIGHT REDUCTION (XL ITEMS) ALL // ALL
    5. McVaxius' Horn of War - DEX+9 INT+9 CHA+5 // BRD
    6. Runed Bolster Belt - AC5 // STR+10 DEX+10 STA+10 // 36% HASTE // ALL // ALL // 0.1WT
    7. Scimitar of the Mistwalker - 1HS 10/25 // MISTWALKER // RNG DRU // ALL // 2.5WT
    8. Staff of Forbidden Rites - 2HB 25/50 // WIS+9 HP+50 MANA+50 // 10 CHARGES RESURRECTION // SHA DRU CLE PAL // ALL // 6.5WT
    9. Tobrin's Mystical Eyepatch - WIS+15 INT+15 // SEE INVISIBLE // ALL // ALL // 0.1WT
    10. Warhammer of Divine Grace - 2HB 18/39 // YAULP III // CLR // ALL // 7.3WT
    11. White Dragon Scale - used for bard epic & white dragonscale cloak quest.

    LOOT RULES
    1. Depending on the raid, loot rules can differ widely. Be sure to check before joining the raid. Some items may be claimed by the raid leader or hosting guild.
    2. Typically, each class eligible for an item is assigned a number and a random is performed to award the item. If eligible, raid leaders and group leaders should state which numbers they have prior to the roll.
    3. Although some items are all/all, some should be restricted to benefit the classes that could use the item the most - as opposed to being up for sale at the EC bazaar minutes after the fight ends:a. Runed Bolster Belt: Melees / Hybrids
    b. Tobrin's Mystical Eyepatch: Castersc. White Dragon Scale: Bards (for epic quest - only alternate source for scale is Gorenaire). IF open to casters, I would suggest giving bards 5-10 numbers each, thus allowing increased odds at getting scale, but allowing everyone else a chance as well. If another class wins the role, chances are, it will be sold (for significant pp - on some servers over 100k) to a bard unable to kill Vox due to level limitations and the caster will buy a better cloak (Heirophant for 35k) and pocket the difference. Many bards hoping to see an epic someday are stuck at 52, unwilling to level, because Gorenaire is so difficult to kill. Also to note, while performing the bard epic, bards can re-spawn Trakanon, and the respawn will always drop the final epic piece + a random breastplate. Thus, allowing a bard to loot will eventually result in an extra bp at a later date. As a 52 bard myself, I am only a few items away from an epic (small guild, most items from small raids), a bard with a white scale is almost a bard with an epic.
    d. Staff of Forbidden Rites: Sometimes open to all. Most people donate to guild vault and loan to monks when raiding Hate & Fear (or other difficult zones). In the event of a wipe-out, the monk can use to rez a cleric, thus avoiding redoing a full break-in. Personally, I like to limit to 50+ monk/sk, and if they have it, open to all.
    MISCELLANEOUS NOTES
    It is possible for a level 53+ player to directly assist in a Vox fight, but it is moderated by getting expelled by Vox (other than buffs prior to a fight). If you get placed on her hate list, you will be expelled.
    1. Casting a spell on Vox will cause you to get expelled. The spell may or may not land. Spells that cause waves of damage appear to work - subsequent to the first wave.
    2. Healing people fighting Vox will result in an expulsion. The heal will generally take, lower level heals (non-CH) will sometimes allow you to cast more than one prior to expulsion.
    3. Getting too close to Vox may result in an expulsion. The agro radius is quite large.
    4. Some groups have used CoH (Call of Hero) to heal people. Since CoH wipes a persons hate list, someone can be summoned, have CH cast on them, and return to the fight. Since the hate list was cleared with the CoH, the healer is not placed on hate list.
    5. Some raids have used 53+ characters to keep any respawned ice giants from bothering the Vox group.
    6. If a 53+ attempts to pass the rock door or pull the first mob in the chamber, you will be expelled. If a group is currently fighting Vox, you can enter the chamber.
    PIT CORPSE RECOVERY

    1. Easiest method to get corpses is to have 1-2 groups go into the pits and kill mobs. Experience is excellent, even at 52.
    2. Go back out rock door and get a levitate. Bards can group lev with singing steel boots.
    3. Take immediate right and fall through trap into pits below. There is usually 1 spider directly below that will agro. If you stay directly below pit, no other mob should agro.
    4. Kill spider and other spiders in immediate area. Spiders are only mobs that can see invis in pits. When spiders cleared, easy to invis and just pull any corpses past bears.
    5. Once recovered, can port out or by climb ladders to NE and then falling back down into Vox's lair
    (2)
    Last edited by Simaril; 02-26-2014 at 02:36 AM.

  9. #19
    Player
    Trashy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    19
    Character
    Taylor Swiftcast
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Word count for that: 4050, including the loot rules and obvious preparation stuff that's not part of the fight.

    Word count for http://shinra-ffxiv.guildwork.com/fo...e-shinra-style: 4176. Sorry, what's your point?

    And besides,
    Once finished dispelling, enchanters should immediately begin mana sieving her, and continue to sieve until Vox is dead.
    Hoo boy. Cast one skill the entire fight. That sounds like a blast. Sign me up for this role.

    If FFXIV combat is square dancing, then what you're asking for with a tank and spank fight is a skeet shoot. Stand in the right spot, shoot things. Dodging mechanics requires me to have good reflexes and situational awareness, make quick decisions, (do I have time for this medica cast?) and constantly challenges me while I deal with other mechanics.
    (4)

  10. #20
    Player
    Simaril's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    405
    Character
    Simaril Ratbane
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Carpenter Lv 50
    My point was that MMOs existed, and were popularized using that kind of encounter mechanic. Yes, the preperation was part of the encounter, because it was hard work that took time. Did you catch the part where Wizards wait until the boss is at 20% to nuke? No, you don't get to test your Halo or CoD PvP reflexes... you get to be part of a team in a very strategic role... and if you're selfish everyone dies. Oh yeah, and you LOSE xp when you die... and this is a lv 52 instance... I think on another boss - Nagafen - you couldn't do it if you were 53. Obviously, this stuff goes way beyon the orginal arguement that there's too much dancing in FFXIV... but the expectation for MMOs has gone in a really sad (and bizarre) direction.


    I want to play chess. You want to play paintball.



    From wikipedia on mmorpg:
    "Finally, MMORPGs as defined today began with Meridian 59 in 1996, innovative both in its scope and in offering first-person 3D graphics, with The Realm Online appearing nearly simultaneously.[16] Ultima Online, released in 1997, is often credited with first popularizing the genre,[16] though more mainstream attention was garnered by 1999's EverQuest and Asheron's Call in the West[16] and 1996's Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds in South Korea."

    These games rarely employed the dancing that has somehow become the main... or only feature of raiding today. IMO those games were more engaging in many ways. The model since WoW has been square dancing in instances, and then a patch with more square dancing filled instances!
    (1)
    Last edited by Simaril; 02-26-2014 at 04:22 AM.

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