will there ever be a dps war?

[Nova_Dresden]

They don't necessarily have to have only 2 handed axe for MRD because of the armoury system, they could easily add one handed axes to MRD just as they could easily add 2 handed swords to gladiator or 1 handed javelins to lancer. Look at THM and CNJ, they have both 1 handed clubs and wands and 2 handed staves and poles. Is it so much of a stretch for them to add 1 handed weapons to other classes?

This also leaves room for expansion of these classes, for example DRK from GLA using primarily 2 handed swords, or Viking from MRD using one handed axes. It also opens up the opportunity for all classes to be available for dual wield if/when it is added.

The system doesn't exactly work that way. Everyone assumes that it really just takes a quick programming change to give a different weapon to a class, but it actually works the other way around in that the class belongs to the weapon. Adding on top of that all the job abilities for each of those classes are tanking abilities with built-in enmity increases or defensive cooldowns and the class doesn't yield itself to spinning off another job unless it's a tank. If they do introduce Dark Knight it should spin off of a new class able to use a Scythe and maybe a great sword, but either way it should not spin off of a preexisting class. I currently have Warrior and Paladin at 50 (technically Marauder and Gladiator at 50 with soulstones, but whatever.) If for some reason they decide to introduce Dark Knight as a spin off of Marauder and Thief as a spin off of Gladiator then, VOILA, I have a level 50 Dark Knight and Thief after maybe an hour of job quests as soon as the new expansion launches and then have to play the game of figuring out HOW I'm supposed to play my level 50 jobs as if I'm level 1 again.

They should stick with introducing a new class with some oddball name that evolves into a previously well-known job from a previous FF game. Something like "Barbarian" should be introduced that uses scythes and great swords and evolve into Dark Knight and something like "Assassin" should be introduced that evolves to Thief and Ninja (BOTH of which should be a DPS class.) The leveling process of 1-50 needs to be intact for any new job, and any class should evolve to the same roles because I've dealt with WAY too many level 50 SMNs sick of waiting for DPS queues and switch to their Wanderer's Palace healing gear and queue as SCH and not know what to do because they never healed a fight in the entire time they played this game.

And dual-wield would be a job trait, not an ability. It would exist on the class it exists on and would not be exchangeable to other classes.

[Exstal]

They should stick with introducing a new class with some oddball name that evolves into a previously well-known job from a previous FF game. Something like "Barbarian" should be introduced that uses scythes and great swords and evolve into Dark Knight and something like "Assassin" should be introduced that evolves to Thief and Ninja (BOTH of which should be a DPS class.) The leveling process of 1-50 needs to be intact for any new job, and any class should evolve to the same roles because I've dealt with WAY too many level 50 SMNs sick of waiting for DPS queues and switch to their Wanderer's Palace healing gear and queue as SCH and not know what to do because they never healed a fight in the entire time they played this game.

１） Scythe is a terrible weapon of choice I hope it never sees the light of day outside of cartoony games and Devil May Cry
２) Read my sig. If not, for Thief and Ninja to ever be under the same class (Rogue)** it'll have to be after a few expansions because 5 skills, maybe even 10, isn't enough to differentiate jobs that stem from the same class
３) The idea isn't wrong, just your views seem to be limited (or emotionally driven)

**Assassin wouldn't make sense as a base class. It's a specific mission of a Ninja, who normally steals information or kills, and almost always more powerful than Thief, as they are just a normal street rat who pilfers.

[Jamez82]

I could see the MRD class getting a dps in the form of greatswords. A job that forgoes axes for a more "civilized" form of warfare.
Class will be called BadAss.

[Nova_Dresden]

１） Scythe is a terrible weapon of choice I hope it never sees the light of day outside of cartoony games and Devil May Cry
２) Read my sig. If not, for Thief and Ninja to ever be under the same class (Rogue)** it'll have to be after a few expansions because 5 skills, maybe even 10, isn't enough to differentiate jobs that stem from the same class
３) The idea isn't wrong, just your views seem to be limited (or emotionally driven)

**Assassin wouldn't make sense as a base class. It's a specific mission of a Ninja, who normally steals information or kills, and almost always more powerful than Thief, as they are just a normal street rat who pilfers.

1) Scythe was the defining weapon of Dark Knight in FFXI, so it only makes sense that it exist as such in this game along with great sword since the other defining weapon, a sword, belongs to Gladiator.
2) Assassin is just something I pulled out of the air (at work, tired, 12-hour shift, doing 4 things at once, did I mention tired) so yeah, Rogue works better as a class name. I still think the two should spin off the same base class due to some small similarities (usually dual-wielding in most games, use of knives and other small bladed weapons, light armor, will both most likely be DEX based melee DPS, etc) and that 5 abilities can easily separate the Jobs as long as the key defining abilities are provided after 30. Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Steal, and Mug for Thief. Ninja would need some more definition since the key ability Ninja always had was Throw. Maybe toss in Garrote or other Assassination type abilities. I'm just pretty adamant in my mind that Ninja should NOT be a tank like everyone wants.
3) The only thing I'm emotionally attached to is that all currently existing classes should NOT spin off any new jobs, and any new class introduced should only spin off jobs of the same role. I don't logically see any use in allowing someone to level to 50 as a DPS and switch to healer or tank on the same class without any knowledge of what to do in those roles with the job in question nor do I think the playerbase wants to perpetually keep switching their stats around day-by-day for each role.

I could see the MRD class getting a dps in the form of greatswords. A job that forgoes axes for a more "civilized" form of warfare.
Class will be called BadAss.

Where in God's name is a "dislike" button?

[Sylari]

3) The only thing I'm emotionally attached to is that all currently existing classes should NOT spin off any new jobs, and any new class introduced should only spin off jobs of the same role.

I don't see how the first is any good at all. It just stymies your ability to create new things (by forcing you to design an entirely new class every time you want something else) and the second point just seems silly. Given that your job is 80% the base class, having same role jobs is outright counterintuitive. The bit about a plague of people ruining your runs with roles they don't know how to play is pure sophistry.

[Nova_Dresden]

I don't see how the first is any good at all. It just stymies your ability to create new things (by forcing you to design an entirely new class every time you want something else) and the second point just seems silly. Given that your job is 80% the base class, having same role jobs is outright counterintuitive. The bit about a plague of people ruining your runs with roles they don't know how to play is pure sophistry.

If anything it's anecdotal, not sophistry. What's counterintuitive is introducing any new job that starts at level cap. It completely defeats what an MMO is about if your only goal on your new job is to get geared up for a raid the same day you unlocked it. It shouldn't stymy anything since spinning a new job off of an existing class is simply giving that class 5 abilities and a different subclass to pull abilities from. If you want something new and different you actually have to create something new and different. At the very core of SMN and SCH is ACN that simply stacks DoTs, uses Aetherflow and its abilities, and has a pet. After 30 either the pet heals or does damage, you get either healing abilities or damaging abilities, and two different groups of subclasses to pull from. It's still the same ACN job in two different roles with different spells and two different primary stats shared between the two jobs. I don't think spinning a DPS and a tank off the same class would entirely work since the necessary cooldowns would be different and the base abilities would need enmity modifiers for tanks that would cause the DPS role of the same class to quickly surpass an actual tank since they won't be subject to the damage penalties of the tank role. Not to say it would never happen, I just don't think this is a good idea in the long run. But I seriously still personally think a new job should not come from an existing class as the main class.

[Sylari]

If anything it's anecdotal, not sophistry.

You're right. I just like using the word. Though it's nothing I've personally seen.

What's counterintuitive is introducing any new job that starts at level cap. It completely defeats what an MMO is about if your only goal on your new job is to get geared up for a raid the same day you unlocked it.

It may skew what an MMO is about to you, but that's certainly a subjective call. There's plenty of people (admittedly myself included) that'd view that process as grinding away on chump mobs with only half your toolkit and more of a tax you have to pay to reach the 'actual' gameplay than a meaningful experience. Not necessarily the first time around, maybe even not the second. But the third, fourth, fifth and sixth? I could do without it.

It shouldn't stymy anything since spinning a new job off of an existing class is simply giving that class 5 abilities and a different subclass to pull abilities from. If you want something new and different you actually have to create something new and different.

You're right, it's worded incorrectly. It doesn't necessarily stymie your ability to create new things, but it does significantly increase the burden of effort redirecting everything into entirely new classes rather than simply reflavoring and nuancing existing ones with new jobs.

At the very core of SMN and SCH is ACN that simply stacks DoTs, uses Aetherflow and its abilities, and has a pet. After 30 either the pet heals or does damage, you get either healing abilities or damaging abilities, and two different groups of subclasses to pull from. It's still the same ACN job in two different roles with different spells and two different primary stats shared between the two jobs.

But as we can see the classes operate in tremendously different fashions because of those variations in abilities and role. In a way I don't think you could accomplish necessarily if scholar was simply another DPS.

I don't think spinning a DPS and a tank off the same class would entirely work since the necessary cooldowns would be different and the base abilities would need enmity modifiers for tanks that would cause the DPS role of the same class to quickly surpass an actual tank since they won't be subject to the damage penalties of the tank role.

Cooldowns could be an issue (at least in the case of gladiator. Marauder lends itself quite well to a potential dps). Dealing with enmity and defensive issues could be as simple as throwing in a level 30 stance or applying some sort of modifier with the job crystal though.

Not to say it would never happen, I just don't think this is a good idea in the long run. But I seriously still personally think a new job should not come from an existing class as the main class.

Personally I think it's the best way to implement new jobs without buiding an entirely new chassis from the ground up. Especially at this stage of the game there just isn't enough new material in the job itself to make me think you can significantly differentiate two jobs of the same role built on the same class. Maybe at level 60 it'd be easier to do that though. Plus there's some great thematic links that could be drawn between certain classes and potential jobs that I don't think should be wasted.

[Alistaire]

If by duel war, you mean a dual-wielding WAR, then I would say most likely no as that would require a different weapon setup than WAR or MRD which would not work with the way the class/armoury setup works in this game.

However a DPS class coming off of MRD, such as Dark Knight or Berzerker or something like that is both possible and fairly likely. I personally hope for Dark Knight.

Not quite true. It'd be a bit different than what any job uses right now but not far off how GLD uses both swords and daggers, and WHM/BLM uses 1-h weapons + shield or 2-h weapons.

So WAR would just get 1-h weapons which would allow them to use 1-h offhands. No change in the system required.

[Nova_Dresden]

and WHM/BLM uses 1-h weapons + shield or 2-h weapons.

That's because both of them are casters, not melee, and they have no auto-attack. All their damage is in the spells and their magic damage (or healing) is based on spell potency, magic damage from the weapon, INT or MND and determination. Switching between a single-handed or two-handed weapon only affects the spell and they're designed to do the same task and provide the same damages. Melee works different since they have an auto-attack and single-handed weapons have lower damages and attack faster while two-handed weapons attack slower with higher damages. While Gladiator gets daggers and swords, both of those are one-handed weapons and Warrior uses two-handed weapons. Just like WoW and Single-minded Fury vs. Titan's grip it would require a lot of different calculations in order to get the same effects from 2 different weapon types and I just don't see that happening for melee in this game. Warrior will probably always be a 2-handed job and Gladiator will probably always be a one-handed job.

[Sylari]

That's because both of them are casters, not melee, and they have no auto-attack. All their damage is in the spells and their magic damage (or healing) is based on spell potency, magic damage from the weapon, INT or MND and determination. Switching between a single-handed or two-handed weapon only affects the spell and they're designed to do the same task and provide the same damages. Melee works different since they have an auto-attack and single-handed weapons have lower damages and attack faster while two-handed weapons attack slower with higher damages. While Gladiator gets daggers and swords, both of those are one-handed weapons and Warrior uses two-handed weapons. Just like WoW and Single-minded Fury vs. Titan's grip it would require a lot of different calculations in order to get the same effects from 2 different weapon types and I just don't see that happening for melee in this game. Warrior will probably always be a 2-handed job and Gladiator will probably always be a one-handed job.

The more significant thing I think here is visuals. A dual wield warrior would need an entirely new suite of animations and effects to work.