Patch 2.2, Accessibility, Difficulty Levels, and Throwing Away Content

[Worm]

Don't focus on gear checks, I mean anything that actually creates a sense of progression like some content being harder than other content, content having an attunement line, or something to control how many people can see this content. You know something that makes beating the final boss more impressive than the ones before it. What you're talking about just sounds like having a lot of content that's generally pretty accessible once you hit level cap. I only have some limited experience with EQ and it's mostly secondhand, but the reason some dragon was hard to kill was because he wasn't always there and only one group could kill him and then he'd be gone. There was some kind of limitation that forced you to work together with people, join a guild, and progress not only in gear, game knowledge, skill, group synergy, but also socially. It's all nice and well to say "Make all the content good content that people will enjoy it", but is this progression at all? I haven't played FFXI, GW, or GW2 so maybe I just don't have the experience to understand what you're talking about.

I mean obviously if you fill a game with good content that people like and want to log in to experience, well it's naturally a good game, but that's not the easy part.

[ApolloGenX]

There are people out there that are 'gamers' and play 50+ hrs a week...shocking I know

The point Xatsh is making is very valid. SE released a game where you can get 1-50 in less than a week, crafting jobs in 1-2 days. If their design allows you to lvl so fast and reach endgame then they better have the content at the end of that road to keep these players interested.

That isn't SEs target audience. Yoshi has repeatedly made comments that they are targeting more casual players. So, no there is no need for them to design for that kind of player.

-That said, currently there is not content to satisfy CASUAL players, imo. I leveled slowly... have leveled a couple of jobs to 50... and still there is very little to do endgame. So, while I disagree that SE needs to bother worrying about those that devour content faster than it can be created- they DO need to work on creating enough content for their target audience.... which they haven't done, imo.

[Synapse]

Man all i wanted to do is get gears and do stuff with it... but right now it seems like..

Dungeon gears needed for Primal/Dungeons > gives you points for DL > DL needed for Coil.. whats next another dungeon that wil drop better gear then Coil so we need coil drops to attempt that?

That is a stupid game play.

When i get a gear i wanted to do something with it... i dont want that gear to be precursor for next gear. and so on and on...

[Susanoh]

Don't focus on gear checks, I mean anything that actually creates a sense of progression like some content being harder than other content, content having an attunement line, or something to control how many people can see this content. You know something that makes beating the final boss more impressive than the ones before it. What you're talking about just sounds like having a lot of content that's generally pretty accessible once you hit level cap. I only have some limited experience with EQ and it's mostly secondhand, but the reason some dragon was hard to kill was because he wasn't always there and only one group could kill him and then he'd be gone. There was some kind of limitation that forced you to work together with people, join a guild, and progress not only in gear, game knowledge, skill, group synergy, but also socially. It's all nice and well to say "Make all the content good content that people will enjoy it", but is this progression at all? I haven't played FFXI, GW, or GW2 so maybe I just don't have the experience to understand what you're talking about.

I mean obviously if you fill a game with good content that people like and want to log in to experience, well it's naturally a good game, but that's not the easy part.

Content that is accessible once you hit end game is exactly what I'm talking about, and I personally would argue that it ends up making for a much better game in the long run.

To answer your question about whether it's "progession," if you mean in the sense that you become vastly more powerful than you were every patch, or in the sense that one piece of content leads into the next and then the next in a repeating pattern, then no, it isn't. But I wouldn't say that the power creep is really progression either. Yes, you may get 10 or 20% stronger every few months, but the mobs and bosses are also becoming 10 or 20% stronger along with you. The end result is that every bit of new content is just as challenging as it would have been had they not decided to buff both players and mobs, and all content that came before it becomes easier and over time, a complete joke. New content also may become gated by equipment, where players feel a need to collect newer items to have a shot at holding their weight. None of these make for a very good game experience IMO. On the other hand, if the same content is used in a horizontal progression method, it can still be just as enjoyable and challenging as if it were used in a vertical progression method, with the differences being that players don't feel that they're locked out of the content until they grind to get new equipment, and instead of obsoleting the existing content in the game, it adds to it.

To sum it up, horitonal progression:
-Allows for an expansive game where multiple activities created over months/years are challenging and relevant.
-Doesn't lock players out of content because they haven't upgraded to the latest equipment.

Vertical progression:
-Creates a game where only one or a few activities are relevant.
-May lock out players out of the new content for a time if new equipment is necessary to take down bosses.

Effectively, these are the only differences between the two methods that have a strong impact on how we actually play the game. The only other difference is in how it "feels," but I would much rather have a good game with lots of content than a game that provides an illusion of "progress" and has very little relevant or challenging content.

Lastly, creating good content that people want to play may not be easy, but creating a wealth of good content that players will want to still go back and experience even after new content has been created is something that some would want developers to strive for in an MMO, and many developers aren't even trying. You mentioned you hadn't played Guild Wars, and this was actually one of the best things about that game IMO. The level cap never raised, and equipment never crushed what came before it, and there was lots of content that players could go back and experience from launch day until the latest patch. And not just in a "hey, I'm doing things the retro way like nobody else does any more" like in present day FFXI. Last I played the game two years ago (it's a 2005 game), there were still people playing and doing content from all different time periods in the game's life. That's the type of thing I and some others would like to see developers strive for, a game with lots of content that players want to play that can stand the test of time and not be judged only by its latest patch.

[Fendred]

To sum it up, horitonal progression:
-Allows for an expansive game where multiple activities created over months/years are challenging and relevant.
-Doesn't lock players out of content because they haven't upgraded to the latest equipment.

Vertical progression:
-Creates a game where only one or a few activities are relevant.
-May lock out players out of the new content for a time if new equipment is necessary to take down bosses.

This.

All their development time is going to be spent creating more of the same stuff we have already done. It's not like they couldn't make really interesting housing options for players where players can construct their own unique dwellings. The reason the housing is so strongly preset is because the bulk of their development time is going to be spent on constantly rebalancing the game as they build upwards.

Eventually, people will want to see the old content restored so that it is meaningful and Squarenix will end up spending ridiculous amounts of time redoing old boss encounters just to make them relevant. Not to mention Squarenix is already going to have a bunch of developers getting part of their precious time locked into WoWesque style PvP rebalancing hell, which is driven more by PvP politics than anything else.

[Worm]

Content that is accessible once you hit end game is exactly what I'm talking about, and I personally would argue that it ends up making for a much better game in the long run.

To answer your question about whether it's "progession," if you mean in the sense that you become vastly more powerful than you were every patch, or in the sense that one piece of content leads into the next and then the next in a repeating pattern, then no, it isn't. But I wouldn't say that the power creep is really progression either. Yes, you may get 10 or 20% stronger every few months, but the mobs and bosses are also becoming 10 or 20% stronger along with you. The end result is that every bit of new content is just as challenging as it would have been had they not decided to buff both players and mobs, and all content that came before it becomes easier and over time, a complete joke. New content also may become gated by equipment, where players feel a need to collect newer items to have a shot at holding their weight. None of these make for a very good game experience IMO. On the other hand, if the same content is used in a horizontal progression method, it can still be just as enjoyable and challenging as if it were used in a vertical progression method, with the differences being that players don't feel that they're locked out of the content until they grind to get new equipment, and instead of obsoleting the existing content in the game, it adds to it.

I'm not talking about getting 10% stronger every patch but further the idea that you're always moving forward. I just don't see how you're going to create that with flat content. People will hit 50 have a choice of multiple raids, dungeons, and crafting stuff that we hope are all masterfully designed and that's the game. If you masterfully design vertical progression it can be just as fun. You're falling back too much on the game needing to be great. You just don't like gated content or power creep so you want a game without it, it really doesn't feel like there's more to it than that. What about not having power creep or gated content makes the game good? I don't like power creep or gated content either, but I like it better than the alternative of games that need to play like Korean grindfests to last.

Effectively, these are the only differences between the two methods that have a strong impact on how we actually play the game. The only other difference is in how it "feels," but I would much rather have a good game with lots of content than a game that provides an illusion of "progress" and has very little relevant or challenging content.

Well of course if one game has more content it will be better but you're just falling back into this 'good games are better' argument again. If you have a horizontal progression game with absolutely nothing to lock people out of content, how will that game last? By simply having 10 times as much content as competitors? You must see how this line of reasoning is a little unrealistic.

Lastly, creating good content that people want to play may not be easy, but creating a wealth of good content that players will want to still go back and experience even after new content has been created is something that some would want developers to strive for in an MMO, and many developers aren't even trying. You mentioned you hadn't played Guild Wars, and this was actually one of the best things about that game IMO. The level cap never raised, and equipment never crushed what came before it, and there was lots of content that players could go back and experience from launch day until the latest patch. And not just in a "hey, I'm doing things the retro way like nobody else does any more" like in present day FFXI. Last I played the game two years ago (it's a 2005 game), there were still people playing and doing content from all different time periods in the game's life. That's the type of thing I and some others would like to see developers strive for, a game with lots of content that players want to play that can stand the test of time and not be judged only by its latest patch.

I think it'd be nice if they strive for that too, however people play these games until they die, so I don't know that it's fair to point back and say "People are still playing this online so it must have had lasting power", when you've got people still playing Meridian 57 and things like that. I think the real trick for MMOs is to created a game for less than millions and millions of dollars and slowly grow content and playerbase along these lines. I don't know if a game like what you want can come out and appeal to a niche audience but also have huge AAA levels of content. I don't necessarily disagree with your intent or opinions but mostly your opinions on how they'd be logistically achieved.

[Colt47]

You don't. You create good content that people want to log in and play and have a good experience doing it. Gear gated content is one of the most boring, mind numbing aspects in the MMO genre. FFXI had plenty of content made specifically for a set group rather than open world (dynamis, limbus, nuzule, salvage, einherjar) and while better equipment helped, none of it was what modern gamers would consider a "gear check," other than possibly a few very specific strategies. If you don't like me using FFXI as an example, take a look at the original Guild Wars and to a lesser extent, Guild Wars 2.

Some gear gating is going to be inevitable, but if it turns into a proverbial ladder of equipment tiers towering to the heavens with a good number of tiers on weekly lock out... well lets just say the padding against the ever feared "exit condition" starts to become a bit obvious.

[Susanoh]

What about not having power creep or gated content makes the game good?

As I've mentioned, it means more relevant content that people can and actually may want to participate in. It means the experience that players were able to have with content from months or years ago are still just as good as the day they were introduced.

As for the lack of gear gating, it means players can focus on enjoying content and getting alternative rewards to compliment their current sets rather than watching their current equipment become garbage and needing new equipment to be considered acceptable to participate.

I don't think I'm alone if feeling that the power creep and gated content do far more harm than good.

Well of course if one game has more content it will be better but you're just falling back into this 'good games are better' argument again. If you have a horizontal progression game with absolutely nothing to lock people out of content, how will that game last? By simply having 10 times as much content as competitors? You must see how this line of reasoning is a little unrealistic.

I think it'd be nice if they strive for that too, however people play these games until they die, so I don't know that it's fair to point back and say "People are still playing this online so it must have had lasting power", when you've got people still playing Meridian 57 and things like that. I think the real trick for MMOs is to created a game for less than millions and millions of dollars and slowly grow content and playerbase along these lines. I don't know if a game like what you want can come out and appeal to a niche audience but also have huge AAA levels of content. I don't necessarily disagree with your intent or opinions but mostly your opinions on how they'd be logistically achieved.

Games with no significant power creep can have lasting content that has other restrictions in place to keep people from spamming content and getting everything in a week (see: FFXI). Games can also have no power creep at all and have content that people can do any time on demand, and still have people logging in doing it today (see: Guild Wars). Guild Wars, by the way, sold six million copies and has no power creep whatsoever and still had people doing stuff from the original launch game 7 years after release (possibly still does now), so I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm preaching for a small niche that no significant amount of players could ever get into. I'm not saying anything crazy here. Similar ideas to what I'm suggesting have already been done by other games, and they didn't crash and burn because players didn't get to bump their iLVLs up every six months to a year.

[Segraine]

I enjoyed Guild Wars because it lacked vertical progression. I could hit max level in two or three hours. But the different ways you could set up skills and stats kept me coming back. If you wanted to make a screwball build like a ritualist caster tank you could. Variation kept me interested. Progression should come from a player's mastery of the class rather than gear. This involves the ability to open each class to multiple play methods. It requires more action diversity. More cross class skills help this. Think Magic the Gathering deck building. There is a balance problem with this, however. Some combinations are too powerful. Other combos are weak.

The foundation for this is in the game. It just needs expanded.

[Xatsh]

In my opinion Vertical progression is the main issue with most mmos lately.

All mmos start with lack of content, just due to the long development cycle and everything that goes into them. The problem becomes when that same level of lack of relevant content remains patch to patch, expansion to expansion. If there is always only 1-2 raids, 1-2 dungeons, and dailys it does not matter if the game has 100gigs of content in it. That content is all that matters due to massive content negation in the name of vertical progression. Example Patch 2.2 crystal towers is worthless playing anymore due to coils 1-5 being unlocked. So more or less the devs could just remove it in 2.2 and few would probably care.

Older mmos lasted the test of time because they built on themselves over time. When a new expansion came out it gave you more content to do, NOT JUST NEW CONTENT. So if you had 20hrs a week of content and the new expansion hit you now had 30hrs of content a week. Next expansion 40hrs, next expansion 50hrs to the point it was impossible to do everything every week. That is what is worth a sub and why I feel the current p2p market keeps failing.

Having locks outs and stuff does not matter when you have so much content that is relevant.

This is a p2p game and I want to be able to play it. But once content is learned and mastered all that is left to do is to jump around Limsa for 3hrs a night after I am done coil and primals.

This games problem atm is not that it is new I keep see people say this... the games problem is the core philosophy of content progression we have. It is just a flawed model.