Primals Unquestionably Bad

[jomoru]

My theory is that if the good faction of say the Amalj'aa were to summon Ifrit, perhaps he would be more benevolent.
Of course, due to the use of aether, they would probably never do that.

My theory is that its not so much a problem with the summoner as the summoning method. Each and every "bad" summons we see was taught by the Ascians.

[myahele]

There's also the issue with good king moogle mog. He was a benevolent person/non primal. But when he was summoned via similar methods as a primal he became corrupt and shares many traits of a primal.

My guess if that if one of the 12 was summoned the same way as the mog king (ascian method) then the same can happen.

They'll probably be the most powerful due to the fact that they are the patron deities of great nations.

[Anonymoose]

My guess if that if one of the 12 was summoned the same way as the mog king (ascian method) then the same can happen.

Perhaps the true reason Louisoix used our prayers to conjure only their strength...

This theory of how primals work has really picked up steam around here, but even if I did play a role in it, I'm not ready to accept it whole-heartedly. All of the early promotion for FFXIV focused on the embrace of the Twelve on Eorzea, and SE doesn't usually lie so hard so fast. Even in FFXI, the religious mythology of those who defiled the heavens and had their homes cast into the sea as an act of divine retribution ended up being pretty damn close.

Of course, we haven't heard much from before the time of the Allag and most of the lore of the wandering races has them showing up long after their fall. The lore says that Eorzea belonged only to the Twelve when the wandering races arrived and that they protected us out of appreciation of our resilience... and this is where I see some possibility. Think about it - if the land belonged only to the Twelve when we showed up, but the Allag ran the show before that... maybe Acheron wasn't the only giant, augmented Allag guardian that survived the Fourth Umbral. If other Allag guardians were the original basis for the legends of the Twelve, then we wouldn't be wiping the floor with SE's mythology and we'd have support for the theory of summoning that we're building, which would be comforting... but right now we don't have much to go on, and nowhere near enough for me to make that claim.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Actually, I'm more intrigued about the cosmology of the Primals and the Twelve rather than their respective moralities. It seems to me that it's implied that the Twelve can be summoned in more or less the same fashion as the Primals, and that leads me to wonder if the Twelve aren't themselves entities of materialised aether, much like the Primals.

Are they "gods" in the world-creating sense, or "gods" in the sense of being extremely powerful beings? By this, I'm referring to the very different way the Japanese think of "gods", in contrast to the Judeo-Christian West. What makes the Twelve different from the Primals? In terms of power, it seems to me that the Twelve are apparently on the same level of elder Primals like Bahamut.

And if we were to continue the discussion on morality, I would highlight the strong clues that Rhalgr of the Twelve doesn't seem like a particularly benevolent entity. In fact, it seems that Ala Mhigo, whose citizens worshipped the Destroyer, was once very much a belligerent power in Eorzea, and its last ruler was apparently a cruel tyrant brought down by revolution.

So, if nothing else, it suggests that the Twelve aren't necessarily "good" powers in the strict sense. I, for one, would suspect the benevolence of Halone as well, given the way the zealous worship of the Fury has warped the politics of Ishgard.

I haven't completed the main story yet, so perhaps there will be answers by the end, but going by some of the discussion here, I reckon that the bigger questions about natural philosophy haven't quite been answered. Am I right?

[jomoru]

Perhaps the true reason Louisoix used our prayers to conjure only their strength...

This theory of how primals work has really picked up steam around here, but even if I did play a role in it, I'm not ready to accept it whole-heartedly. All of the early promotion for FFXIV focused on the embrace of the Twelve on Eorzea, and SE doesn't usually lie so hard so fast. Even in FFXI, the religious mythology of those who defiled the heavens and had their homes cast into the sea as an act of divine retribution ended up being pretty damn close..

Its not so much that people believe the 12 are innately evil just that the Ascians summons are innately corruptive. Perhaps there is a second tier goal the corruption of these entities by the summons, poison Ifrit by repeatly summoning him until he is something.. darker do so for all the primals and the mother crystal becomes the dark crystal.

[DigitalFowl]

(DISCLAIMER: I have touched nothing concerning Thornmarch or Coil, so I know of nothing concerning the lore there AND have yet to complete the MS Epilogue, which I intend to do today.)

I'm just completely spitballing an idea here but, would it be absurd to suggest that perhaps the Echo is a power much like what the Ascians have and their connection to that 'parallel' Hydaelyn? I know that Hydaelyn appears to choose those blessed with the Echo (I guess?) but would it be absurd if the Echo exists in a bloodline somehow?

So if we go off that, would it then also be possible that adventurers could participate, in the future, rituals to summons aetherically pacified Primals? Would allow for an excuse to summon more complex forms of primals at least, such as a smaller but more accurate garuda and Titan (Perhaps not ifrit) and would allow those beings to perhaps work together and whatnot.

If we assume that the parallel Hydaelyn and its worshippers, the Ascians, are beings of chaos and destruction, then from a logical standpoint those blessed with the Echo should represent Order and Life. So presumably, maybe we can find a way to summon primals and elders in a stable and permanently physical state.

[Enkidoh]

You're kind of on the right track, at least as far as how 1.0 was hinting at, but the devil is in the detail as they say. In 1.0, Ifrit revealed to the player that they could actually summon their own Primal, and was decidedly annoyed by that prospect, so much he made the character swear that they would never actually summon a Primal themselves (or at least, pretended to).

Unfortunately like much of 1.0's storyline, it was never mentioned again and could technically be considered now retconned, given the fact Ifrit doesn't mention that possibility anymore in ARR.

This is the dialogue from 1.0 that reveals the player's Echo-given ability to summon a Primal (taken from screenshots from 1.0). :

Ifrit: "You avow yourselves blessed by gods, yet lack the capacity to summon them to your aid."
Ifrit: "To which do you kneel mortals?"
Path Companion: "I kneel to whomever I desire - but Primals are not to my taste!"
Ifrit: "Fools. Blind to the grace of those who would grant you protection and bless you with their fortune."
Path Companion: "Between myself and my companion, I have all the protection I need."
Amalj'aa: "Blasphemy! Death to the heathens!"
Amalj'aa: "Mind your tongue when speaking to the Lord of the Inferno, lest we cut it out!"
Ifrit: "Your blindness is born of ignorance."
Ifrit: "I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda... or Titan? Perchance... Leviathan?"
Path Companion: "Whatever you smell on me, it is not the scent of a Primal."
Ifrit: "Vex me not mortals. The Paragon warned of the godless blessed."
Ifrit: "There can only be one true god in this world, and those without cannot be allowed to roam unchecked."
Ifrit: "Yet the Paragon has entreated that I spare you, and so I shall - on one condition."
Ifrit: "Vow that you shall forsake the summoning of Another. Do so, and your sins shall be absolved. Refuse me, and your soul will burn for eternity."
Amalj'aa: "On your knees heathens, and give your oath! In the name of Ifrit, Almighty Lord of the Inferno!"
Amalj'aa: "Almighty Lord of the Inferno!"
Path Companion: "You're not serious? You think me alluring enough to attract a god do you? But how?!"

and

Almxio: "The woken ones live! This is most fortuitous!"
Zoxio: "Yes, most fortuitous!"
Almxio: "But the scaled ones refused to read our missive... That was most unfortuitous."
Zoxio: "This one's written words went unread... Most unfortuitous indeed."
Path Companion: "So... while we were being subjected to ritualistic humiliation, you we're watching?!"
Path Companion: "Well I do hope you were listening too because there is something I want to know. Is there any truth to Ifrit's suggestion that we can summon our own Primal!?"
Almxio: "The woken one asks a difficult question. The answer, this one knows not."
Zoxio: "Nor this one, unfortuitously."
Zoxio: "But even if the woken one could summon a Primal, this one would advise against such folly."
Almxio: "Those ones who violate the barrier between corporeal and aetherial are transformed."
Zoxio: "Minds are clouded! Hearts are hardened! Souls are darkened!"
Path Companion: "Your sudden concern for our well-being is very moving. That said, we have seen Ifrit's influence for ourselves... Even if this power is ours to manipulate, it may be a taboo best left unchallenged."

Personally, based on this dialogue, I suspect that originally Tanaka was planning on incorporating this into gameplay by eventually allowing players to summon a specific Primal regardless of class, much like the Totemas in FF Tactics Advance. But of course, the change in development team meant whatever ideas were planned in this regard were scrapped sadly.

[Icecylee]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Yoshida has mentioned plans to allow Free Companies to acquire Primals and summon them on the open world / in the large scale PvP zones? Like, only one FC would have access to any given primal per server, and you could only hold onto them for so long before you lost the right and had to fight for it again or something? So, who knows.

[Alberel]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Yoshida has mentioned plans to allow Free Companies to acquire Primals and summon them on the open world / in the large scale PvP zones? Like, only one FC would have access to any given primal per server, and you could only hold onto them for so long before you lost the right and had to fight for it again or something? So, who knows.

It has been a long time since this was mentioned by the devs and given the story now it would make no sense for us to do so. We know the primals cannot be controlled and instead corrupt everything around them to their will... in lore terms the players ever summoning a primal would make them no better than the tempered beast tribes. I'm of a mind to think this feature was scrapped.

[NoloeTazier]

It has been a long time since this was mentioned by the devs and given the story now it would make no sense for us to do so. We know the primals cannot be controlled and instead corrupt everything around them to their will... in lore terms the players ever summoning a primal would make them no better than the tempered beast tribes. I'm of a mind to think this feature was scrapped.

I think this "content" will be scrapped because of the provoking thoughts of "omg people are going to get CLAIM of Ifrit, we can't have that in this with one group getting claim, here comes the competition vs FC bots and RMTs." After all it's not content for "everyone" if a Primal is locked out for a week or 2, the original estimates to how long a FC would control the "card." Also the likeliness of the Primal summons being way too overpowered when it came to the things they are allowed to be in, PvP for example in Duty Finder would pretty much mean the other team would auto-lose if the Primal was indeed as powerful as it should. I really would like for a roaming Primal with claim ala NMs and HNMs, but the current environment and way the game is going it just goes against everything. But yeah I'd rather from a Lore and content standpoint, just scrap it.