Primals Unquestionably Bad

[jomoru]

It has been a long time since this was mentioned by the devs and given the story now it would make no sense for us to do so. We know the primals cannot be controlled and instead corrupt everything around them to their will... in lore terms the players ever summoning a primal would make them no better than the tempered beast tribes. I'm of a mind to think this feature was scrapped.

We only have the Ascian method in lore we don't know that they aren't actively giving out something that has downsides they profit from. It is entirely possible there are "safer" ways to summon.

[Pentacus]

We only have the Ascian method in lore we don't know that they aren't actively giving out something that has downsides they profit from. It is entirely possible there are "safer" ways to summon.

we actually know of 7 (maybe 8 or 9, it depends how long the ascians have been messing with things and wether tristan's fusion ability counts) summoning methods:

1. the traditional ascian method we all know and love, the "moar crystals! moar worship!" method (from the story, we know this can work on ANYTHING as long as enough people believe in it, it happened with Moggle Mog twelfth of his name (may the smouldering ash I reduced him to never trouble us again), and almost happened with Rhalgr (I honestly doubt that the ascians would be cartoonishly evil to just try and get some kids killed by straight up lying to them, everything they do furthers their plans in some way))
2. the "advanced" method that gave birth to the EX primals (I've not beaten garuda EX yet, but from what Ive been told, it uses some sort of evil thing rather than crystals)
3. Egi summoning, where the summoner focuses on the essence of the primal and not the primal itself (allagan summoning)
4. Tri-disaster, in the quest text, this was actually specifically referred to as "a different way of summoning", possibly using the egi's aether as a spell rather than a traditional summon (also allagan)
5. the "merge with your egi" ability that tristan posessed (what? if the game counts freaking tri-disaster as a summon, I'm sure as hell going to count merging with your egi)
6. loisoix's summoning (interestingly, he seemed to be doing the same thing as the tri-disaster summoning, but with the power of the gods rather than the egis, and their power manifested as a second dalamund-looking structure, so it's possible that what he was doing was also allagan)
7. garuda's summoning of ifrit and titan (interestingly, no crystals were used, instead it required multiple sacrifices of kobolds and amalja, nor was the summoning done by the beast tribes, it was a primal summoning two others)
9.the ascians method of summoning zodiark, although we don't know exactly what it entails
9. it's possible that the beast tribes and allagan empire had a different way of summoning full primals than the one taught by the ascians, at the very least, we can assume that the allagan empire had a method of summoning full primals without requiring worship in order to train their summoners, either that, or the beast tribes must have been summoning the primals VERY frequently to allow enough research to develop egi summoning (I just realized how badass allagan summoners must have been, they needed to fight multiple primals WITHOUT the echo protecting them)

plus, it's implied that the ascians know more summoning methods, they mention in the garuda EX cutscene that they'll "keep giving the beat tribes more and more powerful ways to call upon their gods" (you know, with some new info we learned in 2.1, specifically that ascians can't be seen by people without the echo unless they specifically WANT to be seen, I wonder if the summoner trainer has the echo? she specifically refers to the paragon/ascian that gave tristan belias-egi... which in itself is also interesting)

(there's also the L'Cie summoning that Lightning did, but that's very much unique to herself and is only "summoning" in terms of "thats what it was in XIII")

[VisRalis]

Yet, yes, their nature is terrible in itself. For them to exist they must consume aether, which is required for other things to live. They are, after all, born of chaos.

Mind you, using magic consumes Aether.
By logic, all adventurers are also evil subjectively too.
1 entity consuming a lot of Aether is not more evil than a whole population consuming Aether for spells.
(But this is totally not talked about and only mentioned by the Padjals on the topic of White & Black magic - both is equally bad and needs moderation).

But its just typical Humans (Hyurs, Miqo'te, ...etc w/e) are more important than everyone else.
If its them doing all the bad Aether consuming, it's ok! But its evil if its someone else.

Bahamut's an exception I guess, he just consumes way too much.

Funny thought, pure Garleans who can't use magic are the most 'good' in nature, as far as Aether consumption is concerned.

[Viridiana]

7. garuda's summoning of ifrit and titan (interestingly, no crystals were used, instead it required multiple sacrifices of kobolds and amalja, nor was the summoning done by the beast tribes, it was a primal summoning two others)

It's my understanding that this is actually the beastmen summoning their primals in their final moments of desperation as they die. At least, that's what the summary text in the journal led me to believe.

[Skies]

I am completely uncertain wether magic consumes aether or not, actually.
As far as I am aware, it does not rightfully consumes it, exception being to White and Black. Further actually, as I said exception being to White and Black who have in fact brought a calaclysm of their own forth, none of the arcane arts seem to grant you access to any more aether than you are either given or born with.

Thaumaturgy uses your own, no pilfering from others no taking it from the land or anything, if you do run out and kill yourself, it was only your own aether, which in turn is not really lost, the aether of all things is returne to the land at death, even that of primals.
Conjury you directly ASK the land for it's power, you are definitely not ever given more than it deems safe to grant you. I hardly doubt that hydaelyn is suicidal about that.
Arcanima is an art based on binding the aether for effect, and later letting it dissipate again. No effect is long-lasting and no aether is eternally trapped.

Unlike with primals, who hoard more and more aether to remain alive, and who would ultimately dry up the land to remain existing, unlike every other living being who contains aether, but needs not bigger quantities by the day, they simply contain that which they were born with. Pureblood garleans are no more or less good than others, regardless, as they too consume aether with their science. What do you think their fuel, ceruleum, us?

[Pentacus]

Mind you, using magic consumes Aether.
By logic, all adventurers are also evil subjectively too.
1 entity consuming a lot of Aether is not more evil than a whole population consuming Aether for spells.
(But this is totally not talked about and only mentioned by the Padjals on the topic of White & Black magic - both is equally bad and needs moderation).

But its just typical Humans (Hyurs, Miqo'te, ...etc w/e) are more important than everyone else.
If its them doing all the bad Aether consuming, it's ok! But its evil if its someone else.

Bahamut's an exception I guess, he just consumes way too much.

Funny thought, pure Garleans who can't use magic are the most 'good' in nature, as far as Aether consumption is concerned.

not exactly, the second (or was it third?) umbral era was caused by massive overuse of black and white magic, however, most of the magic that adventurers use now isn't the same as in the past, the only job that uses magic in such a dangerous way is WHM.

ACN, SMN and SCH don't actually USE much aether, they use a small amount to redirect natural aether currents using patterns and formulae contained in their grimoires (acn/smn pets release their aether when they are desummoned, so they're aether neutral)

BLMs and THMs aether is fairly strange, the THM quests make it clear that they are using the PLAYER'S aether, and that mechanically, meditating on astral fire and umbral ice allows their aether to rapidly regenerate (which is why CNJ and ACN don't get umbral ice from Blizz2, they are just using the spell, not actually meditating on umbral ice).

CNJ and WHM are the big exceptions, the whole point of the CNJ questline is to cement the fact that they use their own aether like THMs, but rather than regaining aether through meditation, nature gives them their aether back, if a CNJ uses too much aether without accepting more from nature, they overexert themselves and die, however, the amount of aether that they are allowed is purely at the discretion of the elementals, if you are using too much aether, they'll probably just refuse to give you any more until you stop being so wasteful (amusingly, that's probably put sylphie in the elementals good books, considering that she tried to stop using magic at all fearing that she's hurting the elementals by using ANY magic).

in the past, when there was no regulation for WHMs, EVERYONE was using full on white magic with no regard for what would happen, both WHMs and BLMs were taking aether directly from the lifestream and the sheer amount of magic used in the war of the magi brought about an umbral era. now, BLMs all use the THM's methods of restoring aether, whilst lorewise, WHMs are strictly regulated (canonically, you are the only non-padjal WHM, and you are one of the few remaining BLMs), CNJ are WHMs regulated by the elementals, rather than just ripping magic from the lifestream, whilst WHMs are free of such restrictions on the use of their magic, hence only the padjal, the ones that the elementals specifically choose, are allowed to become WHMs (and yourself, by virtue of being A-Towa's heir, and even then, one of the two padjal was fairly worried about the prospect)

don't forget that in the lore, there are very few people with job classes, you're the only dragoon, the only non-padjal WHM, one of the 5 remaining BLMs, (I'm not 100% sure about the PLD, BRD, or WAR quests, I've not done those ones yet), the second summoner to exist since allag's fall (although more can exist, the sons of saint coniach are specifically getting more souls of the summoner to help train more), and the first scholar since the fall of nym (technically, others can exist, although you're the only one with a fairy unless they discover more souls of the scholar, the techniques of the scholars can be taught to others though). all of the other players are technically non-canon (amusingly, in the hildibrand quests, it's mentioned that since you beat ultima, other people have been claiming to be warriors of light with fake relics)

the primals on the other hand use up aether just by existing

so, really, which is worse? a single WHM adventurer who happens to have unrestricted access to the lifestream's aether, or the primals?

[Skies]

Just to note, Pentacus, the PLD is very different from the other jobs because there are a lot of paladins.
Paladins are simply the highest rank of the Ul'Dahn royal guard. Nothing more and nothing less. Like, there are certainly only a few called paladins because only a few reach that rank, but every sultansworn you see is actually a Paladin with their own Soul of the Paladin, they just haven't attained the rank and mastery you have.

Which is one of the reasons I love them

[Pentacus]

It's my understanding that this is actually the beastmen summoning their primals in their final moments of desperation as they die. At least, that's what the summary text in the journal led me to believe.

it's still interesting since I'm fairly certain that they didn't have a few piles of earth and fire crystals with them at the time (considering that they were tied up and all), meaning that whilst the worship and desperation were there, the crystals weren't.

plus, from the cutscene, it definitely gives the impression that it's garuda doing the summoning, she hits them with a whirlwind like when she tries to temper the player, the beastmen cry out to their primals to save them, the beastmen turn into yellow and red sparkles which fly up to create the summoning circles, then ifrit and titan are there.

it certainly doesn't seem like the beastmen were intending to summon ifrit or titan that way, the fact that they were begging their primals to save them means that they didn't expect to die during the summoning, else the "oh titan save us!" would be a little pointless.

there's also the point that the beastmen were garuda's PRISONERS, if they had summoned their primals, they would likely have been our allies temporarily since everyone there except the ixal wanted garuda dead (hell, the reason they needed saving was because garuda was killing them)

[Viridiana]

it's still interesting since I'm fairly certain that they didn't have a few piles of earth and fire crystals with them at the time (considering that they were tied up and all), meaning that whilst the worship and desperation were there, the crystals weren't.

plus, from the cutscene, it definitely gives the impression that it's garuda doing the summoning, she hits them with a whirlwind like when she tries to temper the player, the beastmen cry out to their primals to save them, the beastmen turn into yellow and red sparkles which fly up to create the summoning circles, then ifrit and titan are there.

it certainly doesn't seem like the beastmen were intending to summon ifrit or titan that way, the fact that they were begging their primals to save them means that they didn't expect to die during the summoning, else the "oh titan save us!" would be a little pointless.

there's also the point that the beastmen were garuda's PRISONERS, if they had summoned their primals, they would likely have been our allies temporarily since everyone there except the ixal wanted garuda dead (hell, the reason they needed saving was because garuda was killing them)

The crystal thing is weird, yes, but the rest is all explainable. First, the tempering whirlwind and the whirlwind she uses there are different. The tempering one is blue in color, much like Ifrit's blue flames. The ones she uses on the prisoners is the same as the one she blocks Alphinaud and Cid with. Beastmen crying out to their gods for salvation is a perfectly natural reaction to facing imminent death. As to the primals allying with us against Garuda, I believe she expected to have to fight them. Unless she really thought they'd surrender their aether to her willingly. . .

[Sakasa]

Interesting subject but I just wanted to add some more facts about Ramuh that the dailies have given us.

Ramuh at least to the Slyphs isn't so much summoned as called from the heaves. While it is vague it is possible that Ramuh is actually out of the aether and roaming the sky above Eorzea. But that would beg the question why would he leave tempered followers about and then leave them to their own devices? Well Slyphs unlike the other beastmen appearently require a certain Slyph to call upon him. Not every Slyph can do it, so its not so much the need for lightning crystals but the need for the special slyph to be given reason to Call him, and by how the quest is read Control him. This special slyph like all slyph are grown and then become slyph from special conditions and in the quest you hijack the special one before the birth to avoid the tempered ones to temper the special one. So what that points to if this isn't reconned is that the tempering was a request made by the last special slyph to control Ramuh and a method to temper to Ramuh with out Ramuh present was created. So effectively it was one bad seed (pun) that was uncharacteristically violent or fearful that lead to the inital temperings not specifically Ramuh.

Also from the main story line the kobold seem to summon titan in response instead of proactively. But you could make that argument about the Ixail as they original took up specific grudges after loosing access to Twelveswood and the lost of their feathers/the ability to fly. The only beastmen that seem warlike from introduction are the Amaljaa and the sahagian both of which summoned or attempted to summon their primal as a armament for their new enemy. In this case 1.0 Uldah because they choice to abandon them and "remove" them under threat of Garlemand and 2.0 Limsa part of the island that was sahagian is no longer claimed by the sea via the dalamud fall. Both of which you could claim are reactive as they did not choose the battle placed before them. But in theory neither did the dragon that made its home in Brayflox or in Stone Vigil as we haven't seen any notion that the dragons have any intelligence beyond that of a wolf beside Nidhogg who seems not only intelligent but sentient.