Primals Unquestionably Bad

[Niniyo]

With all of the uncertainty about The Twelve, the nature of Bahamut, and other things in the world, it seems really disappointing to me that the Primals are unquestionably Bad Things(tm).

We had the other thread I created about Primals and Egis, and the nature of how they were connected, and whether they were aware the entire time, etc... But this is more fundamental.

The Scions taught us about what the Primals were, and that, unlike other forms of life, they would gorge themselves on aether until it ultimately brought about the end of everything on Hydaelyn. (Right?)

[Niniyo]

Having been a fan of previous FF games, however, it's really sad to see them be so evil. In FFIV, for instance, Rydia was very close with Leviathan and the others, and in FFIX they seemed as though they wanted to help Princess Garnet. Even in FFVI, despite causing problems, they ultimately wanted to help.

Why is there such a divide here? Why is it, basically, impossible for a PC to admire the Primals without being either stupid or, essentially, wishing for the end of days?

EDIT: How could I fail to talk about FFX o.o But yes, again, a close relationship is shown between summoner and the Aeons, "Primals", there.

[WellFooled]

Having been a fan of previous FF games, however, it's really sad to see them be so evil.

The Primals being evil was one of the most interesting parts of the lore when I first started playing. Every Final Fantasy takes place in a different universe, so part of the fun for me is seeing how classic elements get reinvented every time. I enjoy the summons being the villains :P Can't wait to see what they do with other classics like Shiva and Leviathan.

[Fluttersnipe]

Ramuh is a good primal, in the FF series afaik. I can't remember exactly, but he sacrificed himself to help a major character in another FF game. Not sure why the sylphs in XIV can't summon him though.

He could be evil in this game, but his appearance lends itself well to being a symbol of wisdom and patience, which aren't inherently good, but lend themselves well to that ideal.

[Skies]

Flutter, Ramuh in this game is not actually strictly evil, hell he is a deeply pacifistic Primal in that he is in fact currently summoned and roaming the Sylphlands, yet he orders them not to attack, he will simply not suffer anyone hurting his children.

Nor is Titan actually an evil primal either, all he does is protect his children as well, his clash against Limsa is a simple matter of Limsa literally trying to take over kobold lands.

Yet, yes, their nature is terrible in itself. For them to exist they must consume aether, which is required for other things to live. They are, after all, born of chaos.

Their simple existance is dangerous, but they themselves are not always truly evil. Is that the end of the story?

(given that, I do personally like a Truly Evil antagonist, sometimes you just need someone that you can unmistakably murder and not feel bad about)

[Niniyo]

The Sylphs, even the Temptered Sylphs, haven't resummoned Ramuh, and the Sylphs of Little Solace say as much. The Sylphs of Little Solace say that they do not want to summon Ramuh, and the tempered ones have also not summoned him.

Again, if Ramuh *had* been summoned, based on what we know, we'd have *no choice* but to fight and kill him, or his existence would lead to the death of the world. That's what I mean, and that's the problem I'm talking about. Even if a Primal is "good", they're "bad".

Garuda isn't evil either than, given the Ixal were the original inhabitants of The Shroud, and while the Elezen say that the Elementals disapproved of them (the Ixal) and gave leave to them (Elezen) to build there, we only really have their word for it, so it's perfectly reasonable to wonder if the Elezen didn't try to kick the Ixal out and they summoned Garuda in order to take back what they feel is rightfully theirs.

[Skies]

Again, if Ramuh *had* been summoned, based on what we know, we'd have *no choice* but to fight and kill him, or his existence would lead to the death of the world. That's what I mean, and that's the problem I'm talking about. Even if a Primal is "good", they're "bad".

First noting that Garuda herself is pretty damn evil AND deranged, she has no qualms consuming her own worshippers...

That aside, in relation to the quote. Ramuh has, in fact, been summoned already. In the Main Quest the part where you go to Little Solace you do discover that much, except since Ramuh is such a peaceful primal you decide to simply let them be for the time as you have much more important threats, such as Titan, the Garleans and whatnot, no worry about someone has won't move until attacked.

And as I mentioned, nobody knows wether this is the whole story or not, it would be just boring if one could call all the twists in a story before we reach them, simply because they fit some mold we expect.

And as I said before, it does make me quite happy that the primals are an evil to be destroyed regardless, we need an enemy like that, can't have everything by someone we feel bad about fighting.

[VisRalis]

Yet, yes, their nature is terrible in itself. For them to exist they must consume aether, which is required for other things to live. They are, after all, born of chaos.

Mind you, using magic consumes Aether.
By logic, all adventurers are also evil subjectively too.
1 entity consuming a lot of Aether is not more evil than a whole population consuming Aether for spells.
(But this is totally not talked about and only mentioned by the Padjals on the topic of White & Black magic - both is equally bad and needs moderation).

But its just typical Humans (Hyurs, Miqo'te, ...etc w/e) are more important than everyone else.
If its them doing all the bad Aether consuming, it's ok! But its evil if its someone else.

Bahamut's an exception I guess, he just consumes way too much.

Funny thought, pure Garleans who can't use magic are the most 'good' in nature, as far as Aether consumption is concerned.

[Pentacus]

Mind you, using magic consumes Aether.
By logic, all adventurers are also evil subjectively too.
1 entity consuming a lot of Aether is not more evil than a whole population consuming Aether for spells.
(But this is totally not talked about and only mentioned by the Padjals on the topic of White & Black magic - both is equally bad and needs moderation).

But its just typical Humans (Hyurs, Miqo'te, ...etc w/e) are more important than everyone else.
If its them doing all the bad Aether consuming, it's ok! But its evil if its someone else.

Bahamut's an exception I guess, he just consumes way too much.

Funny thought, pure Garleans who can't use magic are the most 'good' in nature, as far as Aether consumption is concerned.

not exactly, the second (or was it third?) umbral era was caused by massive overuse of black and white magic, however, most of the magic that adventurers use now isn't the same as in the past, the only job that uses magic in such a dangerous way is WHM.

ACN, SMN and SCH don't actually USE much aether, they use a small amount to redirect natural aether currents using patterns and formulae contained in their grimoires (acn/smn pets release their aether when they are desummoned, so they're aether neutral)

BLMs and THMs aether is fairly strange, the THM quests make it clear that they are using the PLAYER'S aether, and that mechanically, meditating on astral fire and umbral ice allows their aether to rapidly regenerate (which is why CNJ and ACN don't get umbral ice from Blizz2, they are just using the spell, not actually meditating on umbral ice).

CNJ and WHM are the big exceptions, the whole point of the CNJ questline is to cement the fact that they use their own aether like THMs, but rather than regaining aether through meditation, nature gives them their aether back, if a CNJ uses too much aether without accepting more from nature, they overexert themselves and die, however, the amount of aether that they are allowed is purely at the discretion of the elementals, if you are using too much aether, they'll probably just refuse to give you any more until you stop being so wasteful (amusingly, that's probably put sylphie in the elementals good books, considering that she tried to stop using magic at all fearing that she's hurting the elementals by using ANY magic).

in the past, when there was no regulation for WHMs, EVERYONE was using full on white magic with no regard for what would happen, both WHMs and BLMs were taking aether directly from the lifestream and the sheer amount of magic used in the war of the magi brought about an umbral era. now, BLMs all use the THM's methods of restoring aether, whilst lorewise, WHMs are strictly regulated (canonically, you are the only non-padjal WHM, and you are one of the few remaining BLMs), CNJ are WHMs regulated by the elementals, rather than just ripping magic from the lifestream, whilst WHMs are free of such restrictions on the use of their magic, hence only the padjal, the ones that the elementals specifically choose, are allowed to become WHMs (and yourself, by virtue of being A-Towa's heir, and even then, one of the two padjal was fairly worried about the prospect)

don't forget that in the lore, there are very few people with job classes, you're the only dragoon, the only non-padjal WHM, one of the 5 remaining BLMs, (I'm not 100% sure about the PLD, BRD, or WAR quests, I've not done those ones yet), the second summoner to exist since allag's fall (although more can exist, the sons of saint coniach are specifically getting more souls of the summoner to help train more), and the first scholar since the fall of nym (technically, others can exist, although you're the only one with a fairy unless they discover more souls of the scholar, the techniques of the scholars can be taught to others though). all of the other players are technically non-canon (amusingly, in the hildibrand quests, it's mentioned that since you beat ultima, other people have been claiming to be warriors of light with fake relics)

the primals on the other hand use up aether just by existing

so, really, which is worse? a single WHM adventurer who happens to have unrestricted access to the lifestream's aether, or the primals?

[Enkidoh]

The fact is though, the Primals have a negative, corrupting influence by their very nature - it's how much or how little they spread that influence with which they each differ by. Ifrit and Garuda are clearly the most dangerous ones (excluding Odin and Bahamut of course), Ifrit due to his liberal use of tempering to indoctrinate both his amalj'aa kin and other races alike, and Garuda due to her insanity and bloodthirsty nature. The other Primals seem to be more content to just protect their specific lands, (ala Titan, Ramuh), or haven't yet been summoned (Leviathan, Shiva), but it's inevitable conflict caused by the influence of these Primals will occur in the future.

This also leads to an interesting comparison between the Primals - ala, tempering. Of all the Primals, Ifrit seems to be the only one directly shown tempering both the amalj'aa and members of both other beast tribes and the five races alike. Titan isn't shown tempering at all, and even Garuda only resorted to it on a single occasion after the player defeats her and she springs back, intending to make an example of the player to punish them by making them her slave for eternity. Of course, this backfires on her.

So, the fact only Ifrit seems to be hellbent on creating an army of zealous mindless worshipers seems to suggest Ifrit is somewhat insecure in his strength - seeming to enslave almost the entire amalj'aa race doesn't seem to be enough for him, and hence he resorts to tempering other races as well. As a Primal's power is directly tied to how many believe and worship them, well, it's obvious he feels the more the better in his case.

This also juxtaposes the situation with the dragonkin in Coerthas - Ishgardians regard those who have been influenced by the dragons as heretics to be killed, and in fact, on several occasions the player is shown not only is this all too real, in fact those unfortunates seem to show all the signs of tempering - just like Ifrit's tempered, they seem to be mindless slaves of the beastmen zealously devoted to them, although who or what is the dragonkin's Primal has not been revealed. So, does that mean the dragonkin's yet to be seen Primal has in fact been tempering long before the amalj'aa summoned Ifrit? I've heard Bahamut constantly mentioned as the dragonkin's Primal, but considering Ishgard has been at war with the dragons for years even while Bahamut was still confined in Dalamud, I don't think this is the case at all. Tiamat perhaps? Or another dragon Primal? Either way, it's a very interesting idea.