Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

[silentwindfr]

the trouble about the thief as jobs is the lack of new capacity that will not look like a thing ninja will use....
outside of the steal capacity, thief haven't generally a lot of stuff.

bravely default one of the most recent game using the jobs system from SE, the thief as action have 5 skill... all the rest is passive.
- steal, you obviously steal an item
- life steal, you steal hp
- mug, you steal an item while attacking (25%)
- Godspeed strike, you attack really fast (like a ninja) an enemy
- shake down, steal item at every enemy (25%)

indeed bravely default is not called final fantasy but still is part of it and we can argue that it's a solo game. but you can check every Final Fantasy before, that about what the thief get each time... the class is here for age, but it's more because it's something commons... do it deserve it own jobs in FF14 ARR? no, clearly no. since we can't steal stuff nor gil, the only stealing left are HP (already used by the marauder and dragoon) or steal stats (it will lead to some trouble, but still possible)

it's why i think that the thief have no place as jobs... it will have no mechanic really interesting or unique.... and finally it don't enter in the lore of the jobs crystal that something extremely rare. (ok not that rare with the number of player hahaha)

ps: we can argue too that warrior is something commons, but it's more a mix between a berserker and a viking more than a warrior.

[Exstal]

ps: we can argue too that warrior is something commons, but it's more a mix between a berserker and a viking more than a warrior.

You can't argue Warrior since Warrior only existed in a single game prior to FFXIV; FFXI. Viking is the same only existed in one game altogether.

[silentwindfr]

You can't argue Warrior since Warrior only existed in a single game prior to FFXIV; FFXI. Viking is the same only existed in one game altogether.

Final fantasy 1, 3, 9, 10-2, 11, 12 revenant wing and naturally 14
warrior is too in Final fantasy tactics advance, A2
and a couple of other final fantasy game... (like dimension)

before post something be sure of it

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior_%28Job%29


ps: while checking for the warrior (i prefer double check before post something) i have notice that the ninja is more often present than the thief in the Final Fantasy games

[DarkStar]

Okay, I've had this kicking around in my head for a while now, so I just figured I'd drop my idea for how Thief could be a viable Job rather than a base class, partly because if Thief winds up being relegated to something I forget all about the instant I hit level 30, I'm probably going to wind up breaking something.

So, with that said, here's my idea, starting with how I think Steal would be set up:

Steal: Deals mild damage and is then replaced by another ability, appropriate to the target (IE, a bit of slime from a Flan, a handful of feathers from a Raptor or Bird, perhaps a buffing potion from a humanoid enemy). This ability can be used once, and is only available until Steal's internal cooldown ends, but either damages and/or debuffs the enemy or heals and/or buffs you. Whether the ability is used or not, Steal has a 1 minute cooldown. May be traited to give the temporary ability gained a second use or something.

With that taken care of, the Thief's job abilities:
Sneak Attack: Stance that gives most (if not all) On-GCD abilities positional requirements for extra damage.
Mug: Moderate damage, and does something related to Steal. It may instantly end the cooldown, it may have a chance to provide a weaker version of the stolen 'item', it might boost the power of Steal's next 'replacement'. I might actually come back to this later, if I feel like it. 2.5 minute cooldown.
Steal Heart: Target is CC'd. Ideally, this would inflict Charm or Confusion, but it could also just be a glorified Sleep, the idea being that it's something to keep unwanted adds out of a fight for a while, provided the fight mechanics allow that. If it causes Charm or Confusion, it'd have a 2-3 minute cooldown. If it causes sleep, no cooldown, just like Sleep and Repose.
Steal Essence: Target deals 10% less damage while the user deals 10% more damage, both effects decaying over the ability's duration. Probably a 3-3.5 minute cooldown.
Trick Attack: The next ability (specifically the next ability, as in it won't activate if you make an auto-attack between using TA and whatever your massive damage attack is) deals double damage OR is a guaranteed crit. Not really sure how that'd work, but if used properly would give a sizeable spike of damage. Probably a 3.5-5 minute cooldown, depending on how big the boost is.

Random notes:
-The base class would be something that can deal lots of little hits, but is also capable of throwing out the occasional large spike of damage.
-Steal is intended to work in such a manner that basically nothing you get from it is useless, won't ruin the economy by letting people get rare drops more easily, and is at least semi-tactical in its use.
-Steal Essence comes from me seeing people trying to figure out how to make Steal Aura relevant. In the end, Steal Aura is just a combination Debuff/Buff, right? Well, that's what Steal Essence does.
-Steal Heart was at one-and-the-same-time both the most annoying and the most awesome ability Thieves had in Final Fantasy Tactics, particularly when it managed to stick on a powerful opponent. I just think it'd be fun to see this ability come back in FFXIV...
-As you can probably tell, Thief is sort-kinda a "Support DPS" class, though less on the support side, considering most of its skills are intended to support itself, though Steal/Mug, Steal Heart, and Steal Essence do have the side-effect of benefiting the group as a whole, obviously.
-If I ever come back and refine this line-up of skills, it'll probably be with a full line-up of skills and traits for the base class too, and maybe even a second Job, which I doubt will be Ninja.

Anyway, there you have it. My 10-minute idea for how Thief could be a relevant job and not be demoted to "Class" status. Comment, criticize, whatever you want to do. This was just my two cents on this subject.

[Nahara]

ps: while checking for the warrior (i prefer double check before post something) i have notice that the ninja is more often present than the thief in the Final Fantasy games

Maybe I'm completely misinterpreting the implication here (if any exists at all, and if none exists I apologies if I sound like a dick), but I really hope you're not suggesting that a job is only worthy of being a job and not a class in XIV because it meets some minimum number of previous titles it's showed up in. If such a criteria existed, Scholar would never have been picked for the healer class attached to Arcanist, as Scholar is relatively unknown compared to the Summoner, or White Mage, or Warrior.

I'm still a firm believer that Thief, as one of the most iconic jobs in the franchise, deserves to be a job and not a class. I've got nothing against Ninjas or the people that want them in the game, and I have hope that the developers are smart and creative enough that they can include both of these jobs, and not toss Thief under the bus by making it a class.

[Duelle]

I'm still a firm believer that Thief, as one of the most iconic jobs in the franchise, deserves to be a job and not a class. I've got nothing against Ninjas or the people that want them in the game, and I have hope that the developers are smart and creative enough that they can include both of these jobs, and not toss Thief under the bus by making it a class.

The question arises once again: Do we want overlapping designs or not?

We don't have a specific niche to hide THF in (enmity transfer and lolTreasure Hunter), so your options are pretty much limited to standard MMO dagger class (WoW's Rogue class and Rift's Bladedancer soul would be excellent starting points for THF gameplay, IMO). Ninja, meanwhile, would have to be designed as DPS as well, and that's not even taking limits placed by their aesthetic. My gut tells me NIN is going to sprout from PGL; no way in hell they have PGL/MNK the Fuuma set and not keep that in mind.

[Neph]

The reason that it doesn't "deserve" to be a job is that THF and NIN are the same exact archetype: they're the stealthy, backstabby archetype. NIN might have some minor mystical associations, but, honestly, they're really not that different.

you've never played FFXI, have you? Most ppl that want thf back is because of how awesome they were in ffxi. Also, nin and thf were very different in ffxi.

[silentwindfr]

@nahara:
no, i was only surprise, i had always think the inverse actually ^^.

@duelle:
about the fuuma armor, i will only say this... one armor can be wear by more than one class and jobs. the healer, dd caster and tank are already using the same armor.

@neph:
ninja was really different because of how the player have used the class, at the base the dev never intended to make it a tank, that the player that have make it a tank. and i seriously hope to not see the ninja as tank... same thief was able to use sneak and steal or treasure hunter passive, but all of this haven't them place in FF14, mostly because the game are totally different.

[Themis]

The question arises once again: Do we want overlapping designs or not?

We don't have a specific niche to hide THF in (enmity transfer and lolTreasure Hunter), so your options are pretty much limited to standard MMO dagger class (WoW's Rogue class and Rift's Bladedancer soul would be excellent starting points for THF gameplay, IMO). Ninja, meanwhile, would have to be designed as DPS as well, and that's not even taking limits placed by their aesthetic. My gut tells me NIN is going to sprout from PGL; no way in hell they have PGL/MNK the Fuuma set and not keep that in mind.

Keep in mind that Yoshida has already told of plans to introduce classes/jobs which serve in multiple roles as hybrid jobs. It doesn't have to be the case that a Job is either a healer, tank or DPS, but can fulfil more than 1 role depending on the situation. With that in mind, it's quite possible that future Jobs will overlap with current ones (and new ones) in their ability set/roles.

Here's the quote from the 2.1 patch interview (emphasis mine):

Will it be divided up by light party/full party content?

Yoshida: Apart from the Crystal Tower which is alliance content, we plan for endgame content to be focused on a unit of eight players. For example, gathering Allagan Tomestones is good for a light party, but I feel like eight players is the smallest unit that should take on strong bosses.

Any reason in particular that you feel that way?

Yoshida: Yes, we want to make sure that there is space in the party for at least two people of each role. 4-6 players is a number which has been used frequently in recent MMOs, but I stuck with the figure of eight people since back in the design stage for the aforementioned reasons. You can have two each of healer and tank and four DPS in the present situation. Once we add the hybrid role (which serves multiple roles), you'll be able to have two players from each role, for a total of 8 people.

Source

Perhaps that will give some means to further the discussion here.

[Exstal]

You can't argue Warrior since Warrior only existed in a single game prior to FFXIV; FFXI. Viking is the same only existed in one game altogether.

Final fantasy 1, 3, 9, 10-2, 11, 12 revenant wing and naturally 14
warrior is too in Final fantasy tactics advance, A2
and a couple of other final fantasy game... (like dimension)

before post something be sure of it

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior_%28Job%29


ps: while checking for the warrior (i prefer double check before post something) i have notice that the ninja is more often present than the thief in the Final Fantasy games

FFI: Warrior is actually named Fighter
FFIII: Warrior is actually named Fighter
FFIX: Steiner is a Knight
FFX-2: I missed this completely
FFXI: Given example
FFXII-rev wings: I've never even heard of this game
FFXIV: We know this

Just because it says "Warrior" doesn't make it so. Remember, it's based off what the >Japanese< call it. English tends to just take whatever is given to them and make it their own. So look at the original to see which is most correct. That being said, Viking only existed in a single game. FFXIV Warrior is closest to Beserker minus the only using attack.

you've never played FFXI, have you? Most ppl that want thf back is because of how awesome they were in ffxi. Also, nin and thf were very different in ffxi.

FFXI was a bad game and should not be used as a basis for argument.