Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

[LordSaviour]

Don't forget BCNM. Those counted as end game back then also. But the biggest difference was that you could actually do them more then once a week.

I think BCNMs more like the Dungeons we have in 14. Can do them repeatedly and obtain loot whenever. There were things that you are limited on, HNMs 1 a day. Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjer(every 3 days? been too long), things like Salvage, Assault were based on the Passes you had to enter the zones. With all of those areas, you definitely were not guaranteed any items. As most required a full Alliance to kill and only dropped a handful of usefull items at best.

If you are getting at the weekly lock out is too long, I definitely agree, they should be more along the 2-3 days like XI had.

[LordSaviour]

bcnms are an equivalent to ffxiv's primal fights imo. Heck even in 1.0 you had to farm currency to enter them.

XI Primal fights are like XIV Primal fights, actually.

Bother require Full PT to kill and both give you weapons.

[Arkune]

Give them time. The game is still young. They are still catering toward people who like things handed to them.

Since this thread is about making 14 more like 11, remember the following;

There was no real 'end game' 4 months in to 11
Storyline was limited to Rank 5 iirc
Only a few HNMs roamed Vana'diel

It wasn't until the release of Rise of Zilart did they implement a true grind. More HNMs, Sky, Dynamis. Key elements that hardcore players enjoyed about XI. Give them time...

well how should i say this hm...

When XI came out it was SE's first MMORPG they had no clue about MMOs at all. And the MMO market wasnt that filled like it is now.

Years are over and they act like they never made an MMORPG before, this game still has plenty of issues (Server lags, crashin Servers etc...) to make it clear. The Miniorty of the Dev Team worked on XIV 1.0 while Yoshi prbly. took 70-80% of his Team into the revamp of XIV:ARR... and this was 2 Years ago. In a live Letter he mentioned that leveling shouldnt be a big part, Level 1-50 should be like a tutorial and the real game starts with 50 (ie. Endgame) and they released a Game which played like a Closed beta (like original XIV) and the Content is still boring as hell.

Everyone knows that creating Content takes always longer then Finish a Content for a Player. With this Kind of MMORPGS where gear isnt Long Lasting just "force" the devs to create Content asap to Keep the Players busy but how much Quality can such a Speed designed Content have?

To be honest: Yoshi is no way better then Tanka, Tanka instead had alteast visions to turn the MMO market again and not going the easy making Money way and try to attract the WoW Playerbase, we all know what happened to the most games they tried to get something form the Big Cake and that is proofed.

Coil is the best example for it, the whole Dungeon looks boring and at some Points the Background Looks like a Wallpaper.

[Amberion]

bcnms are an equivalent to ffxiv's primal fights imo. Heck even in 1.0 you had to farm currency to enter them.

Not really sure I would compare them to primals. Not sure how it was in 1.0 though. But to me, end game has a lot to do with what drops your get. And besides HNM, BCNM was it when it came to drops.

[MageBlack]

Like I said Mage, you can't say they made Final Fantasy 14 like WoW because they didn't want to compete with themselves for subscriptions when that is exactly what they are already doing. That just makes no sense to me.

Secondly, it's not the same as other Final Fantasies in the sense these are the only two Final Fantasy games that require subscriptions that are online. So they are going to compete with another a lot more directly than previous Final Fantasies did. Not many people are going to want to doll out a monthly fee for two different games.

And I appreciate you trying to help me make a better argument. That is sweet. But this was your argument/strawman. Not mine. I was just disagreeing with it. And the only reason I am even talking about this angle is because you brought it up.

Personally I don't think competition between the two games had anything to do with their decision. SE just wanted to jump on the WoW bandwagon hoping for bigger profits like so many other MMORPGs have done. And I don't buy this theory of yours that it was done to accommodate Final Fantasy 11. But you - and others - can believe this if you want. But I am pretty sure it was just another tired attempt to emulate WoW hoping to get a piece of their action.

Well, to try and make my point even clearer, what I said was "Why would they want to make FFXIV even more like FFXI, they would just be competing with themselves for subs" Thats all I said. It was through that that assumptions were made. Yes, FFXIV is competing with FFXI for subs, it was inevitable to the extents I outlined in the previous comment which echo all the points you made, please read them again and understand them. But to make it even more like FFXI would be competing with themselves for subs


I was very clear in my previous post, I dont know why you are still coming back here and trying to make it sound like I meant something else. I was not saying they made it more like WoW, the only reason I brought that up is because is because you did, yet you continue to ignore facts that disagree with your position.

Also, I am not saying that features from FFXI might not be good or beneficial, I did say that people need to be clearer about what they want if they would like a hope in hell of getting it. Rather than the ambiguous "make FFXIV more like FFXI" why not say clearly the things you would like to see. Other posters have done it, in this very thread even. Like i said, it would be futile to try and explain myself.

Even going by your logic of "they are already taking sub from FFXI" what do you think "making it even more like FFXI" would end up doing? Would it stop the ebb of subscribers from leaving FFXI? That is what it sounds like you are saying by arguing with my comment.


EDIT:

Just for clarity and to save time trying to find it again, this is the post I was referring to. Once again, I did not bring WoW or any other game into the conversation until you did.

Ok, please then keep things fair and look at both sides of your argument. Since you are saying that its is way more of a WoW clone, Can you tell me how many subs WoW "hemorrhaged" when FFXIV was released?

To address your strawman, You feel that FFXIV is already stealing subs from FFXI and therefore you wish to totally kill off FFXI by making this game even more like is predecessor? I can tell you why I think so many subs went away from FFXI (also, please tell me exactly how you know ALL those subs went directly because of FFXIV?) Players that went to FFXIV from FFXI went in with an expectation based on a previous experience. They were hoping for a similar experience to what they were already playing. Three things contributed to this way of thinking, 1) Very Similar art style and character models 2) Its a final fantasy title 3) its an MMO

Now if you have experience with previous Final Fantasy titles you will know that, while they have some similarities, numbered installment have been different from the one before it in many ways. FFXIV keep with that tradition, correct? ok, so with the above three points in mind, I can see why MMO players (the vast majority of complainers about FFXIV's design, not as much from the FF players.) who played FFXI and transitioned to FFXIV were surprised and upset at the direction it took.

I'm not denying that many players of FFXI may have transitioned from FFXIV, what I am saying is that it would have been even more damaging to the existing player base of FFXI if FFXIV was more like FFXI. Nobody seems to want to count how many people left FFVII for FFXIII (or the irrelevance of that question) yet here we are talking about FFXI to FFXIV. And we are also not talking about how many people left Guild Wars 2 for FFXIV either. This is what i meant by special pleading.

As for the Strawman part it was in regards to "Defending making FFXIV more like WoW" and "they are already damaging FFXI" is the two are not necessarily connected in the way you are presenting them. Using the excuse that FFXIV is already stealing subs from FFXI therefore we should put more features of FFXI into FFXIV is a strawman when you fail to actually account for where all those subs went, then compare those sub steals for comparable nature from the other game that is specifically mentioned in the OP, WoW. so please, before you continue to wave that around research both sides, come up with a ratio even of transferred subs, then use that as a reason to make FFXIV more like FFXI.

Until then, why not find a better ground to get the features you would like in the game? There are many more, better articulated reasons for getting NM's put in FFXIV for example. There was a great thread devoted to it long ago. Also, be clear on what you would like from FFXI not just the ambiguous "make it more like FFXI" That can mean many things to many different people.

So, ya. make a better argument was all I was trying to say. Like I said, it would take a long time to try and explain myself and I probably wouldnt even get my point across clearly enough for you to understand what I meant by what I said.

[Amberion]

Even going by your logic of "they are already taking sub from FFXI" what do you think "making it even more like FFXI" would end up doing? Would it stop the ebb of subscribers from leaving FFXI? That is what it sounds like you are saying by arguing with my comment.

I think the problem now is that S-E is making FFXI more like FFXIV. ;p

I have never seen a MMO with such a stable subscription rate for as many years like FFXI, and once they started to make it like "other" games, it started plummeting.

With all of those areas, you definitely were not guaranteed any items.

Well, assault gave you points. So you where guaranteed there. But you also knew that once you got the gear, it would last a long time. So even if you didn't get it right away, it would still be a good weapon/equipment once you did.

I wonder what some of the players in this game would say if the relic in this game was like in FFXI. Or getting Lu Shang's rod. 10k mote carps ftw. If I go back to XI, I still need to turn in 3k I think.

And while I understand that people don't want that kind of grind. I think people are expecting to get the best things, with minimal effort in this game. And S-E seems to cater to those players.

[LordSaviour]

well how should i say this hm...

Stuff

Yes, there have been a slew of other MMO's since XI, for them to gather information on and copy the playstyle, UI and mechanics.... But.....They took the 2 years to completely redo this game. You need to view this as an Official launch of a brand new game. Not a game that has been out since 2010. They haven't had the time to really work in a true end game system. Seems like they have had a lot of set backs, starting with Open Beta to Early Release.

You kind of contradict yourself in that reply ...

You want all the end game content available now, but then go on to say that rushing things out will lack Quality and real content.

yoshi mentioned that he wants to continue to expand and grow FFXIV for a decade. This game has room to grow, evolve and get better with every patch.

I think Yoshi's mindset behind leveling not being a big part of the game is to sell more Copies of the game. Being able to complete the story mode before the end of your 'trial' period is over, is very attractive to offline gamers seeking a good story and a fun game. This could lead to more subs, if said person ends up enjoying the type of game ARR has become.

[Allyra]

Not really sure I would compare them to primals. Not sure how it was in 1.0 though. But to me, end game has a lot to do with what drops your get. And besides HNM, BCNM was it when it came to drops.

Primals were really the only endgame at launch for 1.0 (outside of I guess hamlet). So ya you went there for the drops. Granted they were only weapons, but that was what you were farming in the same vein as farming bcnms back in the day.

[Arkune]

snip

Well, i dont need ALL the Content right with the start, all i do i asking for Long Lasting Content and a complex Combat System and a Combat System which let you enjoy the fight more and not 90% of the time watching my Cooldowns or Redline of deaths.

I am sorry to say but i srsly cant see this game as a new one, i played 1.0 until the End. Yoshi had enough time to create atleast one finihsed Content and dont a half-baked one which get patched 6 Months later after the release.

I can understand you in certain parts of your post but to be honest: A MMO which trys to attract the larger Playerbase from the beginning (probly the biggest one ie. WoW) dont have time. This Kind of MMOs growing faster out of the nowhere then you can think. Time is something what this kinds of MMOs dont have.

My Opinion a Armory System shouldnt only be used like a tool to let People have all classes on 1 Character, it should be like in XI where u could have geared all Classes if you spended years on it for the perfect Builds. Sure it had a handicap called inventory space, but this easily could have been fixed it wasnt something that were impossible to program.

Rising Level caps and creating gear which isnt Lasting isnt the key to win in my opinion its the way to attract much People and getting Money for a short period of time before going f2p if the subbings droping with the next release of another MMO which is kinda similar to the current ones.

[Vandark]

Snip

Lame ass gun user, no respect! Face the Samurai like a man, guns are for wimps. Guns are the cowards tool in the heart of battle!

Just like taking the WoW clone path in a new MMO is the cowards tool for an instant hit, take in the cash while you can then let your game die a quick death by another gun/MMO instead of fighting till your hearts content.

XI is still fighting on 11years with subs, the only thing killing it off fast is dungeon like BS they added with there newest expansion.

I guess you could grind Crystal Tower if you wanted to.

You can only get one peace of gear from Crystal Tower a week not to mention it's a useless peace of lvl 80 junk. Even if you wanted to grind it, it has restrictions, this isn't a good thing. Restrictions are just to keep peoples subs rolling over so they can't beat there easy game in a few weeks. Which would be highly possible with the restrictions removed.

everyone says this. but when a "different" mmo comes out, they won't play it.

They will play it in hopes it won't be the same as the last, as soon as they discover it's the same WoW crap again they'll leave the current game there playing to go test out a new one.

Everyone moves, old game dies, process repeats.

snip

Yea I agree with

- Some changeling zones with rare loot for crafting so forth
- lvl 90 gear that requires set up teams that is actually a challenge

A few things I miss about XI;

Quantity of Spells for Mages
Weaponskills for Melees and Abilities of All Classes
and the over all uniqueness of each class.
I miss Skill Chaining in low level Groups.
Going into a Zone and the Mobs actually pose a threat.
Purchasing / Farming spells for Mages, Why are they just given to us?!
The Gear, may be, the #1 thing I miss. Not a fan of every piece being exactly the same as the piece before, just larger numbers.
The Auto-Translate function, so much better than what we currently have
Gear Comparison Windows, Why don't we have this?!.

Everything you said was a billion times cooler in XI, I miss all that too and every time I go back to FFXI and see that massive spell list I think to myself why are the mages so pov in FFXIV.