Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW

[Velhart]

None of this, in any way, changes that XI has never been nearly as successful as this game currently is.

Don't mean to play devil's advocate here, but you are basing these two games off completely different eras of MMO's. Upon FFXI's release, there is a lot of factors to consider. For starters, MMO's were no where near the popularity of what they are today. MMO community back in the early 2000's was a very particular interest and online gaming in general was not very accessible. Internet gaming as a whole was not very big at the time.

Secondly, people were naturally distant of an online Final Fantasy for several reasons. Namely people were not fond of the fact that Final Fantasy, a known offline game series, took the series in the direction a lot were not fond of. Not to mention to play it, at the time did require not the best PC, but did require a higher than standard PC at the time. It was a graphically intense game. It was also an expensive purchase to get the PS2 version and was a hassle to get it set up. All in all at the beginning, FFXI was not entirely friendly to get into.

While I am on the side that FFXIV should go in it's own direction and any ideas from FFXI should only be ideas that doesn't affect ARR's vision as a whole, you shouldn't be comparing the sales and success of two different products of two different eras. FFXI was successful for what it could do at the time. A time where MMO's in general were not accessible and friendly to an open audience.

[LiadansWhisper]

Don't mean to play devil's advocate here, but you are basing these two games off completely different eras of MMO's. Upon FFXI's release, there is a lot of factors to consider. For starters, MMO's were no where near the popularity of what they are today. MMO community back in the early 2000's was a very particular interest and online gaming in general was not very accessible. Internet gaming as a whole was not very big at the time.

Secondly, people were naturally distant of an online Final Fantasy for several reasons. Namely people were not fond of the fact that Final Fantasy, a known offline game series, took the series in the direction a lot were not fond of. Not to mention to play it, at the time did require not the best PC, but did require a higher than standard PC at the time. It was a graphically intense game. It was also an expensive purchase to get the PS2 version and was a hassle to get it set up. All in all at the beginning, FFXI was not entirely friendly to get into.

While I am on the side that FFXIV should go in it's own direction and any ideas from FFXI should only be ideas that doesn't affect ARR's vision as a whole, you shouldn't be comparing the sales and success of two different products of two different eras. FFXI was successful for what it could do at the time. A time where MMO's in general were not accessible and friendly to an open audience.

:-\ The entire reason I brought up the success of XI vs. ARR is that the people are wanting ARR to become XI-2. :-\

[Vandark]

:-\ The entire reason I brought up the success of XI vs. ARR is that the people are wanting ARR to become XI-2. :-\

-.- just stop talking, the things your saying aren't even true.

While it's likely XI didn't have as many subs as ARR when it first came out ( Mainly because MMO's were just starting out and weren't a world wide masive thing ) XI later grew into a much larger community in it's middle life than we have currently in ARR.

ARR has been a success in short time but it's over all success is still questionable and unknown.

FFXI still has a huge fan base, alot of whom are seeking a new experience and hopefully less painful experience in ARR but they still remain hopeful that we will see related content that we enjoy. Many FFXI players have been constantly disappointed with the new MMO's out there we hoped we would always at least have our future Final Fantasy titles to look forward to, we never wanted the game to become world of warcraft we played Final Fantasy because we wanted something different.

ARR would make a whole lot more sense if it was closer to XI than WOW it's in the same series it's not world of warcraft, if you like WoW go play WOW or if you want another wow type mmo maybe you should be playing Tera, SWTOR or Rift online.

Final Fantasy was never supposed to be that kind of MMO it just doesn't feel right the way it is now, it needs more. It needs things from XI and FFXIV 1.23, the things it's missing.

Just because it would then have similarities from XI doesn't make it XI-2, just like taking the things from WoW that it took doesn't make it WoW-2.
You exaggerate too much.

XI and WoW were both the most popular titles back in the day, it was one or the other back then and FF14 could be like the best of both worlds.

[LiadansWhisper]

-.- just stop talking, the things your saying aren't even true.

You've told me that I'm stupid, and now you're telling me to shut up. If you don't want people to disagree with you, don't post things on a public forum. Otherwise, suck it up, buttercup.

While it's likely XI didn't have as many subs as ARR when it first came out ( Mainly because MMO's were just starting out and weren't a world wide masive thing ) XI later grew into a much larger community in it's middle life than we have currently in ARR.

You have absolutely nothing to back that up. ARR has - by SE's own words - twice the number of subs FFXI ever had even at the peak of its popularity.

ARR has been a success in short time but it's over all success is still questionable and unknown.

There's nothing to indicate that, so long as SE keeps its promises about future content and doesn't allow things to stagnate, the game won't continue to improve.

FFXI still has a huge fan base, alot of whom are seeking a new experience and hopefully less painful experience in ARR but they still remain hopeful that we will see related content that we enjoy. Many FFXI players have been constantly disappointed with the new MMO's out there we hoped we would always at least have our future Final Fantasy titles to look forward to, we never wanted the game to become world of warcraft we played Final Fantasy because we wanted something different.

This game isn't World of Warcraft. And no matter how many times you and your cronies repeat this hilarious lie, it isn't going to magically become true.

ARR would make a whole lot more sense if it was closer to XI than WOW it's in the same series it's not world of warcraft, if you like WoW go play WOW or if you want another wow type mmo maybe you should be playing Tera, SWTOR or Rift online.

I like this game. I don't know anyone - outside of these forums - who wants the game to turn into another giant wall of "Nope." I don't know of anyone - outside of these forums - who wants to have to spend years just to level a single class or Job. Who wants to have to fight with other players for rare spawns as "open world content." Cuz, man, it is so much fun to spend 7 hours standing around for a mob that spawns and is already dead within 30 seconds. The only people I've seen who want this so badly are people on this forum. And I'm on a legacy server, with multiple guildies who also played XI and every one of them has said they don't want anything to do with the grindfest that XI was. While there are things that none of us are happy about, there are many more things that we like about the game and that we would like to keep as is.

Final Fantasy was never supposed to be that kind of MMO it just doesn't feel right the way it is now, it needs more. It needs things from XI and FFXIV 1.23, the things it's missing.

Just because it would then have similarities from XI doesn't make it XI-2, just like taking the things from WoW that it took doesn't make it WoW-2.
You exaggerate too much.

And you have, in the same post where you are saying I'm exaggerating, keep repeating the line that somehow FFXIV has "become World of Warcraft." Who the hell is exaggerating here?

XI and WoW were both the most popular titles back in the day, it was one or the other back then and FF14 could be like the best of both worlds.

This is so utterly hilarious. XI has never - ever - even come close to the popularity of WoW. At its peak, XI never had more than 500k subscriptions. WoW had 15 million. Even now, having dropped to about half that, WoW has 7.7 million subscribers. That's still 15 times the number of subscribers that XI had at its peak.

----

There has been a huge chunk of ARR's subs lost already over this, if anything unless some Final Fantasy MMO related content is resurrected I can only see the subs dropping further or no longer increasing.

Where are you getting the information about this? Citation needed, please. SE hasn't released any subscription information recently, and I certainly haven't seen anything to indicate that your information is correct.

With new MMO titles on the way too like Elder Scrolls online, Phantasy Star online and possibly Blade and Soul coming to the Western community who knows what will happen to ARR.

Unless massive changes are made to ESO between last month and its release in April, it is in no way going to be a threat to any MMO. Seriously...to any MMO. It's that bad.

[Vandark]

You've told me that I'm stupid,

Not the words I used

You have absolutely nothing to back that up. ARR has - by SE's own words - twice the number of subs FFXI ever had even at the peak of its popularity.

Your popularity argument has nothing to do with the topic, this isn't a debate about FFXI's popularity VS ARR's popularity it's a debate about bringing back some Xi related content for the player base which seeks this gameplay and have enjoyed it for more 10 years+. Those who argue FFXI wasn't successful are not stating facts.

There's nothing to indicate that, so long as SE keeps its promises about future content and doesn't allow things to stagnate, the game won't continue to improve.

promises about future content were already broken thats why I'm here talking about it.

This game isn't World of Warcraft. And no matter how many times you and your cronies repeat this hilarious lie, it isn't going to magically become true.

It's not WoW, I never said it's WoW, how ever the fact is it's progression is still entirely built around similar and in some cases the same ideas WoW has used and other games like it used. Not much about it remains different to other MMO's.

And you have, in the same post where you are saying I'm exaggerating, keep repeating the line that somehow FFXIV has "become World of Warcraft." Who the hell is exaggerating here?

0.0 I never said ARR has become world of warcraft, infact I said just because it has similarities to wow doesn't make it WoW-2. That means I don't think it's WoW-2 wtf are you on about exactly? Please stop exaggerating and twisting things your clearly the one being illogical here but thats ok I am not trying to convince you of anything because you clearly can't see this from any other side other than your own.

This is so utterly hilarious. XI has never - ever - even come close to the popularity of WoW. At its peak, XI never had more than 500k subscriptions. WoW had 15 million. Even now, having dropped to about half that, WoW has 7.7 million subscribers. That's still 15 times the number of subscribers that XI had at its peak.

Nah derrr, tell me something I don't know, it doesn't make what I said any less true those were the two best games at the time and I chose XI coz I actually disliked and still dislike WoW. Final Fantasy was my choice and thats what I still want to play Final Fantasy, not World Of Wart-assy.

Where are you getting the information about this? Citation needed, please. SE hasn't released any subscription information recently, and I certainly haven't seen anything to indicate that your information is correct.

If you didn't notice the drop in subs yourself then you weren't paying much attention to detail. Discover it for yourself, I just personally know many people who quit for this reason and there are plenty of people complaining about it on the internet. I've even seen alot of people unsubed on these very forums for reasons related to the new content.

Unless massive changes are made to ESO between last month and its release in April, it is in no way going to be a threat to any MMO. Seriously...to any MMO. It's that bad.

There is something for everyone I guess, I honestly haven't dove that deep into those games ARR is the game I have been hopefull for since the first alpha stages of 1.0.
Yes I've been around hopeful this long, what exactly are you hopeing for, what is it you want the game to have content wise, another new dungeon?
How about another dungeon gear set that you receive threw a dayly point system that replaces your old one with 2 extra stats?

What exactly is the point in the conflicting opinions you have when you don't even attempt to be constructive about it?

All your doing is bashing XI with a stick, I'm curious what don't you like excludeing the difficulty about the content XI had to offer?
For those who enjoyed the game nothing could be more thrilling that game used to make my heart race with excitement.

If it was done in a way that doesn't effect the casual gamer what exactly do you have against that?

[LiadansWhisper]

Your popularity argument has nothing to do with the topic, this isn't a debate about FFXI's popularity VS ARR's popularity it's a debate about bringing back some Xi related content for the player base which seeks this gameplay and have enjoyed it for more 10 years+. Those who argue FFXI wasn't successful are not stating facts.

You and others have made the statement that this game is "too similar to WoW," and that it should be "more similar to XI." But WoW is a much more popular game, and XI has never enjoyed the success that WoW has (or brought in the kind of money WoW has). My point about the popularity of each game is valid - because there is no reason whatsoever for SE to scrap a model that is currently making the money hand over fist to a far, far less popular model, which is what you seem to be advocating for.

promises about future content were already broken thats why I'm here talking about it.

Citation needed.

It's not WoW, I never said it's WoW, how ever the fact is it's progression is still entirely built around similar and in some cases the same ideas WoW has used and other games like it used. Not much about it remains different to other MMO's.

So when you said, " we never wanted the game to become world of warcraft we played Final Fantasy because we wanted something different," you were just joking? The entire crux of the arguments in this thread have been, "FFXIV is too similar to WoW" or "FFXIV is a WoW-clone." But you are trying to claim now that it's not WoW? I mean, seriously, pick one. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

0.0 I never said ARR has become world of warcraft, infact I said just because it has similarities to wow doesn't make it WoW-2. That means I don't think it's WoW-2 wtf are you on about exactly? Please stop exaggerating and twisting things your clearly the one being illogical here but thats ok I am not trying to convince you of anything because you clearly can't see this from any other side other than your own.

You just now said that, but I guess when you said, "we never wanted the game to become world of warcraft we played Final Fantasy because we wanted something different," you were just confused.

No shit, tell me something I don't know, it doesn't make what I said any less true those were the two best games at the time and I chose XI coz I actually disliked and still dislike WoW. Final Fantasy was my choice and thats what I still want to play Final Fantasy, not World Of Wart-assy.

Rift and SWTOR have both exceeded the popularity of XI, as well. I still don't see why SE should return to a model that makes it far less money. It makes no business sense.

If you didn't notice the drop in subs yourself then you weren't paying much attention to detail. Discover it for yourself, I just personally know many people who quit for this reason and there are plenty of people bitching about it on the internet. I've even seen alot of people unsubed on these very forums for reasons related to the new content.

You can't base subscription numbers off your own personal observations. First, you don't actually know that people you stopped noticing cancelled their subscriptions - you are assuming that they did, but they very well may have left their subscriptions in place. Second, you don't even know that they stopped playing at all. They may be playing at times that don't mesh with yours, or with people who aren't your people, or in areas you don't go in. There's literally no way for you to know. Finally, you do not know what the subscription numbers are like overall. No one does - because we're not SE and we don't have access to that information. It doesn't matter how many people you personally know who quit, because that's just an anecdote. What matters is what the actual numbers are, and you don't have access to that information and are, as a result, talking out of your backside.

What exactly is the point in the conflicting opinions you have when you don't even attempt to be constructive about it?

What's constructive about, "This isn't the game that I really loved a long while ago, and it should be that game because I don't like how "WoW-like" this game I'm currently paying for is. Make it more like the game I quit to come play this one"???? Because I'm not seeing a lot of constructive thought in any of your posts.

If it was done in a way that dosn't effect the casual gamer what exactly do you have against that?

While I do speak up for the casual gamer quite a bit, I haven't been a casual gamer in a long time. I care because I don't want to deal with that kind of grindfest. It would utterly kill my interest in this game.

I also don't believe that anything you're proposing (at least, what little I could figure out you were proposing beyond "make this game XI") could actually be put in place without affecting the majority of players.

[Vandark]

You do not know what the subscription numbers are like overall. No one does - because we're not SE and we don't have access to that information.

Yes it's been my personal observation, I'm not saying I know the exact numbers I didn't claim to know the exact numbers but I have read in the past from my knowledge that XI had over 2mil subs and online I read ARR only had 1.7mil subs so that is where I got that belief from and by playing both games religiously from there very birth to their dyeing days.

It doesn't matter how many people you personally know who quit, because that's just an anecdote. What matters is what the actual numbers are, and you don't have access to that information and are, as a result, talking out of your backside.

Yet I constantly talk to others about it and most agree with me, I'm not talking out my ass it's my theory as to why less people are playing and I have good reason to believe it's why, it's always been debated as a problem with the game even in ARR's earliest stages and the subject still remains. Could it be because it is a problem?

WOW REALLY HOLLY SH@T I NEVER EVEN THOUGHT OF THAT. (Epic sarcasm here)

So when you said, " we never wanted the game to become world of warcraft we played Final Fantasy because we wanted something different," you were just joking? The entire crux of the arguments in this thread have been, "FFXIV is too similar to WoW" or "FFXIV is a WoW-clone." But you are trying to claim now that it's not WoW? I mean, seriously, pick one. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

/Sigh, it's too close to being like WoW and isn't enough like it's previous titles the ones we enjoyed that doesn't mean it's WoW just that it's too much like wow to the point where we no longer enjoy it as much as we used to and miss the old content we liked.

You just now said that, but I guess when you said, "we never wanted the game to become world of warcraft we played Final Fantasy because we wanted something different," you were just confused.

It's too much like WoW, simple as that. I didn't say I think it's WoW-2 like you stated get over yourself. Where are your real arguments, the only arguments you keep crying out are about popularity and subscription numbers yet no one is suggesting the WoW like content be removed so your argument about content to do with previous FF-MMO-titles being re introduced effecting the subs is twisted and illogical.

Rift and SWTOR have both exceeded the popularity of XI, as well. I still don't see why SE should return to a model that makes it far less money. It makes no business sense.

Yea at XI's peek but XI's kept roleing in monthly subs since 2002. Those so called more popular games were forced to go the FTP model because of there massive drops, they were short lived is that really what you want ARR to become another short lived title?

What's constructive about, "This isn't the game that I really loved a long while ago, and it should be that game because I don't like how "WoW-like" this game I'm currently paying for is. Make it more like the game I quit to come play this one"???? Because I'm not seeing a lot of constructive thought in any of your posts.

Ok everyone I encourage you to read my posts, there is plenty of constructive feedback and nothing in this paragraph of hers was in my words. It is simply how she has chosen to interprate it.

While I do speak up for the casual gamer quite a bit, I haven't been a casual gamer in a long time. I care because I don't want to deal with that kind of grindfest. It would utterly kill my interest in this game.

Huh? Excuse me but FFXIV ARR is a huge grindfest as it is now all you do is repeat the same dungeons over and over again and I've said many times that the content I want has to do with end game content and nothing to do with long winded grinding.
The only mention I made about something non end game was that I preferred the old exp party system it actually felt less grindy to me than the current Fate system at least I was able to socialise with others, it made the experience more enjoyable for me. FF14 ARR in 1,23 was actually faster and less grindy as far as leveling went.

I also don't believe that anything you're proposing (at least, what little I could figure out you were proposing beyond "make this game XI") could actually be put in place without affecting the majority of players.

Well think about it, here I'll give some exsamples.

BCNM in ARR -> They could make BCNM drops the same as XI dropping off enemies in both fates and around the outside world. They could make the amount of BCNM's needed and the drop rates alot easier for everyone so it's more casual than it was in XI. BCNM's - KSNM type instances could still have epic battles so it's a bit of a challenge but getting the items to enter could be nerved to suit casuals.

The possible gear drops and crafting items would give the game some more life and verity and they could make the equipment no better than other 90 gear so it's all raited the same just obtained in a different way.

The things that made XI painful were all due to how long winded it was, if you eliminate that aspect of it plenty of the content could be transformed to suit casual gamers. All I want is more options, I grow tired of the same thing over and over again dungeons and raids just aren't my style.

-NM's - In XI the spawn times were too great, in FFXIV they could eliminate the spawn times completely and make the NM's a pop'ed instance for the end game fights.
The pop items for these large end game NM's could drop off smaller NM's that have really low spawn times of like 5mins or something. Sounds casual to me it just means you need a group for it, thats not that hard. They could make the small NM's soloable so people could collect there own pop sets.

If you just want to keep doing your dungeons and raiding then thats what you would continue to do and those who want to hunt NM's, craft gear, farm up items for pop instances Would at least have the option of doing so. Other wise the player base who longs for this kind of content will get over being hopeful, grow tired and bored of ARR then leave.

[Arkune]

:-\ The entire reason I brought up the success of XI vs. ARR is that the people are wanting ARR to become XI-2. :-\

Well it doesnt really make sense to talk with you on this Topic, because all u wanna "read" is what you wanna "read", neither Vandark or me or anyoneelse want to make this game into a XI-2 HD Version or a "Grind"Fest.

We were talking about aspects they could bring up in this game, all your arguments against our Ideas are the numbers of subbings. But here is the truth, you are not working for SE so you dont even know if the numbers are correct at all.

Since you said None of my 3 Points (why this game wasnt as popular) i am asking you a question

Q: Are you going to Play a MMORPG with a pay2play model which is only in a language aviable which u CANT understand?

For my part, i wouldnt.

When XI came out i spended alot of Money to run XI on max. Setups and when i tried WoW, my PC were over Powered for this game. So the Point with the Hardware which someone mentioned seems legit to me.

Maybe you are lucky on your Server and you have a FC where everyone can enjoy the game how it is, so you dont see how much People unsubbing this game, all you can do is assuming like we do, well i can tell you that ALOT Players in our FC already quittet the game due the fact (ill tell you what they told us) ist Feeling like WoW in the most Parts.

but hell, i couldnt care less what you think or not.

For my Part, i enjoy Big Raids in a open World with my LS/FC (and not Randoms), i am not talking for 21-24 hours Claim spawn HNMs, something like Sky/Sea or Dynamis (which was instanced but it was a town you invaded)

I want that crafters are a part of Endgame, something like XI had with Cursed Equipment and Bosses drop Abjurations so ist a WIN:WIN Situation for all of the Players.

I know Players they came to XIV 1.0 because tanaka said that crafting should be involved into the game and should be a bigger part of they game as usually, with Yoshis raise and his words he just kicked some Players in the Nuts and made them quit aswell.

But back to your Argument Base: Sure it has alot of subbings now, but this game isnt unique enough that it cant be replaced.

[ArcheustheWise]

I care because I don't want to deal with that kind of grindfest.

*facepalm* No way. Did you really jsut say that? No seriously. Ok, just to help you out. You do realize that the current ff14:arr is a grindtastic endgame right? What do you think you do to get DL? What do you think you do to get myth? What in the world do you think people will be doing to save up for those houses that cost 100's of millions of some severs?! Hint: It isn't picking flowers. And it sure as hell isn't going up against challenging encounters.

Really.. "you don't want to deal with that kind of grind"... thats rich. Lol. Thanks for the chuckle.